Our conversation with Mark Hew continues in this episode. The Chief of Staff and Head of Payments and Agents Business for regional fintech group Fazz spends part 2 sharing with us his approach to leadership and sustaining an underdog / David vs Goliath culture (find out what SOS means) in an organization as diverse and as mature as Fazz’s.

Revisit part 1 where he talks about Fazz’s evolution from agent network for financial services to payments infrastructure company

TLDR

5 insights on retaining the underdog or David versus Goliath mentality in a growth stage company 

In our 2021 podcast with Fazz CEO and co-founder Hendra, he talks about the value of Fazz’s underdog mindset from early on that propelled their agent network business to success amidst the emerging competition in the payments space at the time. 

“This David versus Goliath scenario always happens, especially for us. I remember when I pitched Payfazz to you four years ago, you also asked the same question. “Hey, you guys are small. There are some other players who are actually backed by large unicorns and decacorns. How are you going to survive?” And with this same mentality, but over the course of three years with a relentless focus on execution, we actually managed to secure market leadership, and that’s also the case that I believe applies today.”

Since those early days, Fazz has evolved in its scope and focus, becoming a regional fintech, expanding into payments infrastructure across various use cases, raising Series C in 2022.

Yet this David vs Goliath mindset remains valuable and a cornerstone of the company culture today, as Chief of Staff and Head of Payments and Agents Business Mark Hew shares in the continuation of our podcast with him this week.

Even as the company has professionalized and matured over the years, how do they continue to inculcate this mindset in the organization?

(1) “No problem is not my problem.” Employees are empowered to take ownership of issues they come across; “you own it and try to fix the problem until it’s solved or delegated to the right person.”

(2) “Write the checklist, don’t just check the checklist.” This is inspired by the inbox and outbox trays used in mid-20th-century offices. “We want individuals to think like “outbox people” who take initiative, frame solutions, drive action, and get things done across multiple parties.”

(3) “Money makes you stupid.” This discipline to remain scrappy (e.g., making the most out of every dollar) is even more important for a company that has raised more money. 

(4) “We are building a regional company, not just an Indonesian one.” As much as Payfazz has its roots in rural Indonesia, and Indonesian culture will always be part of its DNA, the scope it has achieved has to match with how the company operates, down to even how meetings are run. “Our vision is to compete with international companies, so we need to operate like one.”

(5) “Bring them back to where it started.” It’s important to balance out the future with the past in onboarding employees into the company. Employees in Fazz’s agent business have warung visits as part of their onboarding journey.

“During onboarding, we remind new employees why digital transactions for the unbanked and underbanked population are so important. Constant reminders of the company’s founding origins help inculcate this behavior in everything we do.”

Timestamps

(00:00) Missed Part One? Check it out first;

(00:07) Highlights;

(01:03) From Head of People to Chief of St(u)ff: Professionalizing Fazz;

(07:04) Keeping the Underdog Mindset Alive;

(15:39) What Keeps Mark Going Fazz;

(18:02) Rapid Fire Round;

The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only, should not be taken as legal, tax, or business advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Insignia Ventures⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ fund. Any and all opinions shared in this episode are solely personal thoughts and reflections of the guest and the host.

Transcript

From Head of People to Chief of St(u)ff: Professionalizing Fazz 

Paulo J: Now, in this episode, I wanted our audience to get to know you a little bit more and learn from your experience as a leader at Fazz. You have been with the company for the past few years. Maybe you can share with us a little bit about your journey leading the business for payments and the agent network in Indonesia. You were also Chief of Staff before taking on your current role.

Mark: I always joke with my team about how you need to spell Chief of Staff as “Chief of Stuff.” Basically, things that tend to fall through the cracks, things that people don’t want to do, this is where the Chief of Staff comes in. Jokes aside, the role has evolved quite significantly over the past few years.

It used to be a jack-of-all-trades role, but now we are trying to compartmentalize responsibilities and assign them to their natural owners. The role initially involved investor reporting, special projects, and fundraising, including preparing decks and handling ad hoc reports. We’ve since professionalized and established a strategy department and an IR function within the finance department.

Today, the Chief of Staff role is less formally defined. I usually gravitate towards situational or crisis management, where swift action is required during significant events. Another area is cross-functional coordination, handling initiatives that require communication and collaboration across different departments until a clear owner is identified.

Paulo J: I think it really ties back to what you mentioned in the previous episode about joining Fazz as a sort of “fixer,” and identifying opportunities for Fazz to develop further. This has influenced how the Chief of Staff role has evolved. Apart from being Chief of Staff, you’re also Head of People. Can you share your perspective on the Fazz culture, especially after PayFazz and Xfers joined forces in 2019?

Mark: At the beginning of the merger, there was definitely some friction between the local culture and the regional culture. For instance, during a town hall meeting, some employees spammed the chat function asking us to speak in Bahasa because we’re an Indonesian company.

From a management perspective, we’ve been fortunate because Hendra has been very clear and consistent with his expectations. He always tells us that we are building a regional company, not just an Indonesian one. Indonesian culture is part of our DNA, but our vision is to compete with international companies, so we need to operate like one.

Naturally, our operations lean more towards a regional culture, though we respect local aspects. For example, we announce important notices in two languages and celebrate local festivals in Indonesia, Singapore, and Taiwan, given our sizable Taiwanese employee base. However, our official communication language is English.

Some teams have embraced this regional culture even further. For example, one engineering team in BillFazz, composed entirely of Indonesians, conducts their meetings in English despite having no other nationalities present. Special shout out to Hanif for leading this initiative and the entire BillFazz team.

Our top team is also very diverse, with members from Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, the USA, Mexico, and Australia. This diversity sets us apart and reinforces our identity as a regional company. One ethos that clearly defines us is our underdog mindset.

Keeping the Underdog Mindset Alive

Paulo J: Funny that you mention that because it actually reminds me of our first podcast with Hendra back in 2020, where he talked about the whole David versus Goliath ethos. This mindset was in response to a question Yinglan asked him about how to compete with other fintechs that are far better funded. How has this underdog mindset, this David going against Goliath ethos, continued at Fazz as an organization today?

Mark: Yeah, I definitely remember that podcast. When I was researching PayFazz, that ethos really caught my attention and sparked my interest in joining PayFazz. One common thread between Hendra, Tianwei, and myself is that we all come from humble backgrounds. 

I grew up in Penang, Malaysia, in a kedai runcit, which is what Indonesians call a warung kelontong, or in the Philippines, a sari-sari store. Growing up, there was a lot of struggle to make a living and put food on the table. Even in university, while others were studying and traveling, I had to work 40 hours a week to pay for my expenses, often working more than attending classes.

These early hardships shaped us and instilled strong values in us. When building a team, we wanted to instill this underdog culture. The way I try to codify this from a cultural and behavioral perspective is through what I call SOS: Solution Orientedness, Outbox Thinking, and Scrappy Mentality.

Solution Orientedness means taking ownership of problem-solving. The mantra we use is, “No problem is not my problem.” If you see something without an owner, instead of complaining or waiting for someone else, raise your hand and take charge. It doesn’t matter if it’s not your function; you own it and try to fix the problem until it’s solved or delegated to the right person.

Outbox Thinking is different from out-of-the-box thinking. The concept comes from the inbox and outbox trays used in mid-20th-century offices. The measure of productivity then was how fast you could clear your inbox. But this doesn’t work in today’s context, especially in tech and the VUCA world (Volatility, Uncertainty, Complexity, Ambiguity)

We want individuals to think like outbox people who take initiative, frame solutions, drive action, and get things done across multiple parties. The mantra here is, “Write the checklist, don’t just check the checklist.”

Scrappy Mentality is about creative problem-solving, maximizing limited resources, and not letting the lack of resources restrict your goals. Sometimes, as organizations mature and resources become more available, innovation can stagnate. The mantra we use is, “Money makes you stupid.” Think about how you would act if you didn’t have money. This mindset is crucial, especially now that we’ve raised significant funds and are no longer a bootstrap startup.

Despite our growth, we don’t want to lose the underdog mentality or the David versus Goliath ethos. We’ve codified this mindset as part of our DNA, constantly reminding our team that these values shouldn’t disappear as we grow.

Paulo J: Yeah, it’s quite interesting. You mentioned that Fazz is more of a scale-up now, definitely not a startup anymore post-Series C. Yet, you continue to inculcate the underdog mindset framed within the SOS acronym. I was wondering if you have advice for other leaders who are also trying to retain this scrappy, underdog mindset as their organization grows, especially if they’re operating in multiple countries with different cultures.

Mark: Bring them back to where it started. Remind them of how the company got started. For instance, any employee working for the agent business has a part of their onboarding journey that includes a visit to a warung.

We want them to understand the significance of every single transaction to the people using our application. Sitting in Singapore, Taiwan, or the Jakarta HQ, we might not feel the impact of one transaction. Our take rate might be 200 rupiah, barely 10 cents or two cents in Singapore dollars, but the significance of each transaction is immense for our users.

During onboarding, we remind new employees why digital transactions for the unbanked and underbanked population are so important. Constant reminders of the company’s founding origins help inculcate this behavior in everything we do.

If there’s any advice, it’s to value the past and the stories of how the company came to be. Always find opportunities to bring employees back to the starting point. We joke about setting up a statue of Hendra in Jambi, outside his father’s shop, and bringing all the employees there during onboarding. Who knows, it might turn out to be a good idea—a constant reminder of our beginnings.

What Keeps Mark Going Fazz

Paulo J: Yeah, that’s why I find a lot of fulfillment in getting to know these origin stories. Even if the company changes over the years, the values, mindset, and motivation are what bring the company together. You mentioned that hearing the podcast actually got you more interested in the company. That was the same podcast where Hendra told his story about coming from Jambi and a lot about his family. So, yeah, those stories really matter.

To tie a bow on this conversation, you talked about it a little bit in our last episode, but maybe you can expand on what you have found most fulfilling about working at Fazz over these past three years. What do you think is keeping you and your colleagues motivated for the next five to ten years?

Mark: We touched upon this in the first episode. For me, the two very fulfilling aspects about working at Fazz are these: Number one is creating a lasting impact on people’s lives. Whenever we do a warung visit and listen to the stories of people whose lives have been transformed by using our services, it’s incredibly fulfilling.

We also featured this in our Insignia podcast with Bu Desi, who went from having only one stall under a tree outside the bank to managing 19 stores today. Stories like hers constantly remind us that our hard work makes a difference and has a lasting impact. Seeing how our efforts transform lives is a personal driving force for me as well.

The second aspect is our ability to push the boundaries of technology. On one hand, we are focused on fundamental digitalization in rural Indonesia—things like mobile phones, internet connections, and e-wallet penetration. On the other hand, we are engaged with MAS in Singapore on projects like Project Orchid and Project Lighthouse, discussing stablecoin adoption, purpose-bound money, retail and wholesale CBDCs, and real-time cross-border settlements using blockchain.

Very often, creating a lasting social impact and pushing the frontier of technology are objectives that run contrary to each other. Not many companies have the opportunity to pursue both simultaneously. So, I find it quite a privilege to be able to do both here at Fazz.

If you’re listening to this podcast and aligned with these two goals, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Paulo J: Yeah, normally I’m the one who says that, but thanks for being the guest to extend the invitation yourself. Always welcome! So, on that note, if you’re interested, we’ll leave Mark’s LinkedIn in the podcast description. Be sure to check that out and reach out to him if you want to take the conversation further.