Insignia Ventures Academy (IVA) kicked off its third Cohort this month, and on the podcast, we’re also kicking off this season’s special episodes with alumni and mentors from Asia’s first venture capital accelerator. First up Cohort 2 alumnus, angel investor, and current Gojek head of the merchants business Hoang-Ky Vu, who shares stories of accidentally ending up in Indonesia, how friends got him into angel investing, leading a post-merger integration completely remotely, winning Demo Day on IVA, and more.

Highlights and Timestamps

1. (00:39) Paulo introduces Hoang Ky Vu;
2. (01:43) What excites Ky about Southeast Asia as an angel investor; “…that excites me to really see that with my advice and a little bit of capital, they can really take an idea or a small company to like some future unicorn.”
3. (02:40) Joining Rocket Internet; “…the problems that come with rapid scaling, the chaos that you see in marketing and ops and all that — I feel like that experience has helped me a lot when I came here [to Southeast Asia] in 2015 to help scale startups, because I can draw [from] my experience back in Germany.”
4. (03:55) The Move to Indonesia and Acclimatizing to the Country; “…not only does Indonesia have the largest population in Southeast Asia, but I guess it’s also from a growth and an overall market perspective that a lot of startups want to set foot in Indonesia…”
5. (06:32) Lessons from Driving SME Digitalization in Indonesia; “…the first wave started in early 2017 when more and more businesses adopted the point-of-sale system…but now you see more and more microSMEs, lower-end SMEs, the long tail. They start to adopt technology…What [I] see next is also that we need this kind of omnichannel commerce solution…”
6. (10:30) Behind the scenes of an acquisition; “One thing I have definitely learned is it’s important to really over-communicate.”
7. (13:17) Becoming an angel; “Like you cannot, let’s say, come as a fresh grad and suddenly become an angel investor, but I feel like investors really do their first investments once they have enough experience in the industry as either operator or CEO, then you also build your network, and it just happens naturally then.”
8. (15:04) Value-add as an operator angel; “So I try to take a systematic approach…But at the same time, I’m very conscious that you cannot be too rigid, especially if it’s an early-stage company…So that means you need to also trust a bit of your experience and instinct to see, “Is this founder someone who can build the next unicorn? Is this someone you would trust your money on? Is this someone you as a customer by the product from?”
9. (18:17) Most common piece of advice given to founders; “…don’t underestimate or don’t neglect recruitment. As a CEO, 20% of your time should be focused on recruiting, it should be [focused on] taking top talent on board.”
10. (19:20) Getting the Pitch from IVA; “The highlight of the experience obviously was when our food tech team won the best company and best pitch on demo day…It was just a culmination of our experience of the past 12 weeks…we put really 120% into this program and it paid off…”
11. (20:09) Making the Most out of IVA; “If I were to talk now to the new cohort, I would really tell them, be in the driver’s seat…you also have to be proactive in really making this a great experience for yourself.”
12. (21:49) How IVA impacted Ky’s angel investing; “The one thing from the program that has helped [in my] angel investing is that I became a bit more active in that instead of like, just passively waiting for opportunities.”
13. (22:35) Biggest gaps in Indonesia’s tech ecosystem today; “When I came here back in 2015, the biggest challenge was really the tech talent shortage…Now it’s more like, let’s say I want to start a startup today. Founders still don’t have the ecosystem to support them to build a startup.”
14. (23:45) Advice for operators looking to foray into angel investing; “Let’s say you have a lot of tech startup experience as an operator and, you have actually most of [what] it takes already, but I think what’s still missing is like, where do I start?”
15. (25:15) Rapid Fire Round;

About our guest

Hoang-Ky Vu is an alumnus from Cohort 2 of Insignia Ventures Academy, and a mentor for Cohort 3. Currently, he’s head of business merchants at Gojek. Prior to that, he held leadership positions at several startups, including Moka, which was acquired by Gojek. He was also an early member of Rocket Internet as well, coming from Germany apart from being in Go-Jek. He’s also a pretty active angel investor, focusing especially on SaaS, commerce, and fintech in Southeast Asia.  

Transcript

From Germany’s Rocket Internet to Indonesia’s Gojek: A Journey of Driving SME Digitalization

Paulo: So really honored to have Ky here on the show. Ky, how are you doing? 

Ky: Thanks Paulo. I’m good. Thanks for having me here. Very exciting, [and also to] still be part of the IVA network, so I’m very happy to be here today.

Paulo: It’s obviously really great to have folks like yourself, part of this growing community, not just angel investors, but really people who are just, in general, contributing to the region’s tech ecosystem. Speaking of which, I just wanted to kick things off for you to share what excites you these days about Southeast Asia, especially from an angel investor perspective. 

Ky: As you know, I’m from Germany. So the startups in Germany were already quite mature, even in 2015 when I came here, whereas, at that time when I came [to Southeast Asia], it was still in the very, very early stages. There were no unicorns, [startups had] only raised US$15 million in funding at that time.

So it was very early stage. I think what excites me nowadays is talking to founders, [learning] about their ideas and companies, and helping them with strategic advice. And, of course, you want to make some kind of profit, [and] it’s great if an investment works out, but primarily for me, I feel like it’s not the only driver. 

It’s really giving back to the community, helping to build the next unicorn. And I feel like that excites me to really see that with my advice and a little bit of capital, they can really take an idea or a small company to like some future unicorn. 

“…that excites me to really see that with my advice and a little bit of capital, they can really take an idea or a small company to like some future unicorn.”

Paulo: You talked about how growing up in Germany and being from there really influenced the way that you see…Southeast Asia. So we’d love for you to flesh that out a little bit more. How has your upbringing in Germany influenced your own career path and your own outlook when it comes to tech?  

Ky: To be very honest, in Germany, I was actually mainly [doing] PE and consulting. And the first kind of touchpoint [I had] with startups was actually when I was still in Germany and Rocket Internet [emerged]. As you know, Rocket is globally active, but their headquarters are in Berlin.

Launching the Rocket in Asia

I was involved in two of the Rocket startups. They rapidly scaled. They got a lot of funding, something that you [couldn’t have] seen back then in Asia, but you see actually now where startups have a lot of money. So we saw that already back in 2013 and 2014 in Germany where startups [would get] like a US$100 million [in funding] and then have to rapidly scale. 

And then basically the problems that come with rapid scaling, the chaos that you see in marketing and ops and all that — I feel like that experience has helped me a lot when I came here [to Southeast Asia] in 2015 to help scale startups, because I can draw [from] my experience back in Germany.

And I think that kind of like rapid scaling — not many had [that] experience at that time. A lot of ex-Rocket guys were [in Southeast Asia], but not many had that kind of experience at that time. And I think that that has helped me a lot to also help, for example, Moka scale. 

“…the problems that come with rapid scaling, the chaos that you see in marketing and ops and all that — I feel like that experience has helped me a lot when I came here [to Southeast Asia] in 2015 to help scale startups, because I can draw [from] my experience back in Germany.”

Paulo: So definitely you’re sort of in the middle of Times Square in a way, in the middle of all the action being in Rocket Internet seeing everything sort of develop and lead to Southeast Asia. And you obviously found yourself in Indonesia as well. So maybe you can tell a little bit more about how you ended up in this particular market in Indonesia, and how that experience was?

Ky: Actually it’s a funny story, you know? It’s actually just by accident that I ended up here. While I was still in PE and in consulting, I wanted to be a bit more hands-on and become an operator, and not just [end up] playing with Excel and PowerPoints, which is why I made the move to Rocket Internet, basically through connections. [Then] I got notified about this opportunity in Southeast Asia, which was HappyFresh actually.

Happy and Fresh in Indonesia

The co-founders were also Germans, also ex-Rocket guys. I actually accepted this opportunity as a consultant. So the plan was just six to 12 months in Southeast Asia and the headquarters were in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia back then, and I didn’t know anything about Southeast Asia, but I thought, why not?

I mean, it’s a great opportunity to go and get some experience abroad. So three weeks before I was about to start HappyFresh, they moved their headquarters to Indonesia and that’s how I ended up here. So there was never a plan to go to Indonesia or Jakarta in the first place. 

Paulo: So you were right at that point, when I guess people were seeing just how massive the opportunity could be in Indonesia. 

Ky: I think one of the reasons why HappyFresh also moved their headquarters was that, I mean, not only does Indonesia have the largest population in Southeast Asia, but I guess it’s also from a growth and an overall market perspective that a lot of startups want to set foot in Indonesia and for HappyFresh, they were active in Indonesia and Malaysia at that time, but they saw that the Indonesian operations and market was growing a lot faster, which is why they decided to move their headquarters all together.

Paulo: How was it like getting settled into Indonesia? What was the experience like? What are the things that you found most challenging about personally trying to acclimatize to the market?

Ky: One of the first things I had to get used to was really the work culture. So German [work] culture is very professional in a sense that you focus on work. It’s normal that you communicate in a very direct and straight manner. That’s just [the] German style. 

Whereas in Asia, of course, people also like to socialize; they want to relax. That’s just the Asian culture. And when you communicate, you know, I’ve had painful experiences in that, when you communicate, you also have to [do it] in a more indirect polite manner. So I had to get used to a lot of things, especially the working style. But by now, I’m used to it.

Paulo: And obviously, since it’s been a while, you’ve obviously learned, Bahasa as well. 

Ky: Yeah. I’m pretty fluent now. So that also helps a lot to really socialize with Indonesians, really talk to all levels. So I think it’s pretty important to also know the language.

“…not only does Indonesia have the largest population in Southeast Asia, but I guess it’s also from a growth and an overall market perspective that a lot of startups want to set foot in Indonesia…”

Paulo: Speaking of working with the people in the market I noticed that a lot of the companies, that you’ve sort of been an operator in Indonesia, which I guess I could put under the umbrella of B2B commerce enablers. I’m talking about Qraved, which was sort of an enabler for F&Bs and then Moka, obviously a FinTech enabling SMEs as well. And then now Gojek, which is obviously enabling merchants as well, and you’re obviously part of the merchants business. 

Having been in this umbrella from the very beginning of coming into Indonesia, how would you say that [digital enablement] for SMEs and businesses has evolved in the market? And what’s the next stage of growth for the space? 

Ky: When I started, back in Qraved, for example, that was in early 2016 after HappyFresh, for F&B businesses, there wasn’t much tech. There was just a simple…app where merchants can just accept GoFood orders at that time.

Driving Digitalization of SMEs in Indonesia

And [that] was one tech stack and then the other one at that time was, for example, Zomato and Qraved which offer a restaurant directory as well as reservations. So that was pretty much the only tech stack that full-service restaurants or quick services had at that time. 

But in terms of POS systems, they were still using either manual cash registers or just a traditional POS. So what I’ve seen is, I would say the first wave started like in early 2017 when more and more businesses adopted the point-of-sale system, when I was in Moka, and then towards the end of 2017, early 2018, it started with e-wallet payments, so we had like Ovo and GoPay. They were the first, basically similar to WeChat Pay and Alipay. That was kind of like the evolution that I saw. 

And to your question about, what is the next stage of revolution? I would say it started first more on the higher SME enterprise level, but now you see more and more micro SMEs, lower-end SMEs, the long tail. They start to adopt technology. So it started more top-first, but now it’s going more in that direction.

Naturally, you will see more and more businesses in all segments adopt technology to run their business right from the back end [to the] front end. What [I] see next is also that we need this kind of omnichannel commerce solution, where it becomes normal that you now sell online and offline, especially with COVID accelerating the adoption of online commerce.

So let’s say you have your own [shop]. You may also have an online shop on Shopee or Tokopedia, right? You have your offline business where you have a point of sale system [while] you have an app to accept online orders. So you have different channels now to sell. 

But what you need is a tool not necessarily only to combine everything. Maybe it’s also too much because we always think that integrating everything makes things easier, but maybe it’s also too complex for merchants, but at least that it helps them to simplify the operations smoothly. And I feel like that is the next wave where we have to help merchants [adopt] this omnichannel evolution.

“…the first wave started in early 2017 when more and more businesses adopted the point-of-sale system…but now you see more and more microSMEs, lower-end SMEs, the long tail. They start to adopt technology…What [I] see next is also that we need this kind of omnichannel commerce solution…”

Paulo: Even from an SKU standpoint and seeing order management systems and all of that, that’s definitely an interesting development to look out for, and one follow up question here is, obviously, especially for the long-tail SMEs, when it comes to digitalization, costs can oftentimes be an issue.

And so how do you think about driving adoption for these kinds of software solutions for them, when they may not have [the] budget or the margins [to] actually spend on it? 

Ky: What you see is [startups] targeting those micro or long-tail merchants never charge for the software. Whereas I’d say in the US or Europe, you would always definitely charge for that. Here you see [for] all the players, including in Gojek, [it’s] free. So you really increase adoption by removing that kind of a barrier. But then the question is, how do you monetize?

Paulo: Right. What offsets that “free” software?

Ky: Exactly. So the bet that many players here take, including Gojek, is that you can monetize via financial services, right? Say they take a microloan, or you open a digital bank, just like how Gojek has Jago or you see other FinTech companies acquiring digital banking licenses, right?

The bet here is that you will make money [through] merchant financial services. This is why you offer the app [for free]. The POS app or whatever app they used to operate their business, you offer that one for free. 

Paulo: One aspect of your journey through these different companies that are commerce enablers that I wanted to touch on was when Gojek acquired Moka. And at that time, I think you were COO, so very much up in their leadership, and you were able to see things really happen from all levels.

So we’d love to get a sense of how that acquisition was, in terms of an experience. And  what did you learn from it? How does that impact the way that you support founders, as well as an angel investor?

Ky: I was basically really discussing with the CEO…we had multiple acquisition offers, not just on Gojek, but actually also from Grab. So the options were: get acquired by Gojek, get acquired by Grab or stay independent, raise money and become a unicorn.

Becoming part of the Gojek ecosystem

So I think at that time it was quite a tough decision because we were actually either leaning towards Gojek or towards staying independent. So why we decided in the end for Gojek was first of course, they’re the local company, right? They’re from Indonesia, whereas Grab was headquartered in Singapore.

We knew from previous Gojek acquisitions that they usually let the companies stay relatively independent, such as Midtrans and Kartuku and all that, whereas Grab, they would integrate them directly into the company and decision making is very centralized, whereas in Gojek, it was more decentralized.

So we just felt that with Gojek we can still achieve our vision, while benefiting from the Gojek ecosystem. As you know, Gojek had a large consumer base because of Gopay and Gofood, so we believed that now we can help merchants to grow faster by combining this kind of ecosystem where we can somehow drive the Gojek consumer base to support our Moka merchants.

And Gojek and Moka had the same merchant targets. So it was very much aligned. So that’s why we chose Gojek and I guess [the acquisition] was also a smart decision if you think about it because right after we signed, as you know, COVID happened. 

It was in 2020. Who knows, maybe we would’ve struggled to raise funding if we stayed independent or even had to resort to layoffs. Who knows? But luckily at that time, we signed and then became part of Gojek. So we had at least one thing less to worry about, which was the budget and funding.

And I was also responsible for leading the post-merger integration, which was very interesting. One thing I have definitely learned is it’s important to really over-communicate. So you really have to imagine, you have to lead a post-merger integration fully online. So there were a lot of meetings, a lot of alignment, and then really making sure that we don’t have teams doing duplicate efforts, but really making sure, “Okay, what can stay independent? What should be combined?” But it was a very, very interesting experience.

“One thing I have definitely learned is it’s important to really over-communicate.”

Smooth Operator in the City of Angels

Paulo: Post-merger integration is no walk in the park, but doing it, of course, in the midst of the pandemic, especially during those initial waves, must have been really challenging. But the stars sort of aligned in a way, even looking at it at the time, from the way that you explained it. The timing as well was very fortuitous, which leads me to the next question. 

Now that you’re in Gojek and around that time as well, 2019 and 2020, you also began making angel investments as well. So would love for you to share what made you decide to actually foray into this and what was the decision process there? 

Ky: Honestly, it wasn’t a very conscious decision that I said, “okay, I want to be [an angel investor] now,” and you just start, but it feels like it happened naturally. So how it happened was, I was already in the startup scene since 2014 in Germany. And then in 2019, right when I was still in Moka, so I already had, by then, five years experience in the startup industry, a friend of mine from college started actually a business.

You’ve got an (Angel) in Me

And [this friend] asked me for a lot of advice related to product strategies. So I was very happy to share my experience and give advice. And then it also happened to be that since they just started they were also looking for angel investors.

So I was just also one of the angel investors putting in a small amount, and I guess that was the first step into angel investment. So I feel like a lot of angel investors, it just happens after a while. Like you cannot, let’s say, come as a fresh grad and suddenly become an angel investor, but I feel like investors really do their first investments once they have enough experience in the industry as either operator or CEO, then you also build your network, and it just happens naturally then. People ask you, “Hey, are you interested to invest?” and all that. So I feel that angel investments just happen usually that way

Paulo: Maybe you can describe a little bit, for the audience, what your appetite is in terms of the startups, like geography-wise or vertical-wise. 

Ky: I limit myself to more Southeast Asia, so Germany was an exception. I made two investments in Germany, but that was always friends, basically. But in terms of geography, I’m looking more at Southeast Asia and probably I’m looking more really like pre-seed, very early stage, pre-Series A or until Series A so pretty much the scope that we had back in IVA.

So I’m also looking at that kind of horizon. 

“Like you cannot, let’s say, come as a fresh grad and suddenly become an angel investor, but I feel like investors really do their first investments once they have enough experience in the industry as either operator or CEO, then you also build your network, and it just happens naturally then.”

Paulo: Speaking of focus as an angel investor, I also wanted for you to share how your ops and strategy experience, especially in Indonesia has influenced the way that you approach angel investing and supporting your founders and your portfolio. 

Ky: I always had operations and strategy functions. And there you work very systematically, right? A lot of processes, [and you have to be] metric and data-driven. So I feel like that approach has helped a lot, especially when [I] evaluate investment opportunities, evaluate tech, and evaluate companies. 

The Limits of the Systematic Approach to Angel Investing

So I try to take a systematic approach, looking at key metrics, retention, unit economics, and what are the levers [of the business] and everything [else]. But at the same time, I’m very conscious that you cannot be too rigid, especially if it’s an early-stage company. There’s not much data available anyway.

So that means you need to also trust a bit of your experience and instinct to see, “Is this founder someone who can build the next unicorn? Is this someone you would trust your money on? Is this someone you as a customer by the product from?” Because at the end of the day, I feel like, in the early stage you invest in the team and not the company, especially when it’s so early-stage, there’s a high chance that [the company] will also pivot. 

So whatever you see might even change. So what matters actually is, “Is this team strong enough to also be ready for pivots?” Is this team really like a team of A-players?” So that’s what I look at as an angel investor, especially if it’s early. 

[If it’s Series A], of course, I expect a bit more traction and product-market fit. But that’s why I’m very conscious of what stage that company is at when I value an opportunity.

Paulo: So definitely looking at a lot of different factors. And how does that background also impact your value add to founders? 

Ky: I would say in terms of my background, I would say the domain definitely developed this domain experience in tech, SaaS, and commerce, just because of my experience in food tech. and then another experience that helped me also is back in Moka when we decided to launch new products or go after new segments.

In a sense, you also have to make a decision. When you enter a new segment, when [you launch] a new product, you take an investor lens. Do you invest your startup’s capital into building this new segment opportunity? So there’s also a lot of evaluation. So [it’s the] same as an investor, you look at the market opportunity. 

So we did a similar approach back in my time in Moka. So that has also helped me [build] my brand as an investor or how I position myself to add value to founders. I feel [being] an experienced operator who has helped scale multiple startups on the early stage until exit has helped a lot, and also gives credibility. 

Let’s say if you compare an investor who has all his life just been an investor, or someone who is also investing, but has a lot of startup experience, the founder also feels “I probably get a lot more relevant advice from [the latter].” So I’ve seen that a lot of the founders I invested in ask [me] for a lot of advice related to how to scale [the company], how would you do that. 

The Moka and Gojek brand helps, including the accumulation of various experiences over the past 10 years to kind of build this brand as an angel investor, and it’s why nowadays I also get a lot of messages on LinkedIn, so not just friends but also, from other CEOs that I invested in, they also offer me, “Hey, there’s somebody from my network who’s raising money. Are you interested?” It’s really a network effect. Once you make a few investments and people know you do invest, it just starts flowing. 

“So I try to take a systematic approach…But at the same time, I’m very conscious that you cannot be too rigid, especially if it’s an early-stage company…So that means you need to also trust a bit of your experience and instinct to see, “Is this founder someone who can build the next unicorn? Is this someone you would trust your money on? Is this someone you as a customer by the product from?”

Paulo: Speaking of advice that you give to founders, a follow-up question I had was what’s the most common piece of advice that you find yourself giving to founders, especially say from a strategy or ops standpoint? 

Ky: So a lot of times the advice I gave from my own experience is don’t underestimate [hiring] because at the end of the day, you’re not doing everything but when you take the time and also willing to spend a bit more on hiring those few really top players in your early stage, they make all the difference.

20-80 Rule: Hire 20% of the time to get 80% of the work done

Because I’ve just experienced it myself at the early-stage companies that I’ve worked at, especially in Moka, that basically hiring really top talent and spending time on recruitment has made such a tremendous difference for myself and for the company, which is why the advice I always give is like don’t underestimate or don’t neglect recruitment.

As a CEO, 20% of your time should be focused on recruiting, it should be [focused on] taking top talent on board. And that is the usual common advice I give across. I’m not just giving high-level advice; I’m also trying to be very detailed and specific when we discuss something. But if you ask about very common advice, I think that is the one common advice [I give]. 

“…don’t underestimate or don’t neglect recruitment. As a CEO, 20% of your time should be focused on recruiting, it should be [focused on] taking top talent on board.”

You Get What You Give: Insignia Ventures Academy Experience

Paulo: Obviously like with regards to how to go about it, that really depends on the company and a case-to-case basis. And moving on like I’d like to touch upon — now that we’ve traced your journey from Germany to Gojek now and being an angel investor — the next thing that you did was join in Insignia Ventures Academy. How did you decide to join the program?

Ky: Yeah, so actually, I didn’t know about the program. I knew about Insignia as a VC, but I didn’t know there was this kind of program. So what happened was Gail (the program lead) approached my LinkedIn, and her pitch basically was quite interesting. So we had that call where she was sharing more and in the end, why I decided to jump into this was I was very interested anyway in the whole VC ecosystem, the network, and community.

Even though I already made angel investments before, I never had the kind of more systematic approach. How do investors actually work? And I didn’t know other angel investors. So for me, it was really the aspect of learning more about the space, getting new networks in this community. That was the appealing part. 

Paulo: What was the highlight of that experience in IVA? It’s quite rigorous, I’d have to say being sort of facilitator in the program as well. 

Ky: The highlight of the experience obviously was when our food tech team won the best company and best pitch on demo day, so that was great. Everyone was just very proud. It was just a culmination of our experience of the past 12 weeks. As a group, we worked day and night. We met twice a week, at least, and we put really 120% into this program and it paid off [with us] winning best company and best pitch. 

“The highlight of the experience obviously was when our food tech team won the best company and best pitch on demo day…It was just a culmination of our experience of the past 12 weeks…we put really 120% into this program and it paid off…”

Paulo: Again, congratulations on that. It certainly has paid off. I mean, like whatever you give it to the program, it returns to you in a way. So really happy to see that your efforts paid off, and yeah, it was really good to see how you guys sort evolved in terms of how you looked at the food tech space, especially, and all these companies that you spoke to as well. 

What was the biggest thing you gained from experience and what advice would you give, especially now that, at the time of this recording, Cohort 3 is about to start in the next two weeks, and by the end, it’s published or the episode’s out there, it’s probably already halfway through the program. So what advice would you give for prospective venture fellows in IVA? 

Ky: If I were to talk now to the new cohort, I would really tell them, “Be in the driver’s seat.” Don’t be in the passenger seat and then just be passive, and then ride along the program, or be in the driver’s seat. You make your own experience.

Be in the Driver’s Seat

What it means is that I was very proactive in reaching out to other cohort members in IVA and Insignia Ventures Partners members. My advice is really to be proactive in making the best experience out of this program, and not just expect that the coordinators do everything for you. I feel like you also have to be proactive in really making this a great experience for yourself.

“If I were to talk now to the new cohort, I would really tell them, be in the driver’s seat…you also have to be proactive in really making this a great experience for yourself.”

Paulo: The program is really what you make out of it, so definitely agree and, during the program, you were also able to exercise your angel investing muscle as well. I’d love to know how the program has impacted the way that you do angel investing. 

Ky: The program definitely gave me the time to actively do angel investments. As I said before, it was always more passive in the sense that my friends came to me or opportunities came to me. 

A Startup A Day 

But in this case, it was because we had the IC [meeting] every week, every day we had to talk to companies. As an investor, I had to create our pipeline, reach out to people on LinkedIn or networks and talk to founders. So I became very, very active in angel investments. Like I said, the one thing from the program that has helped [in my] angel investing is that I became a bit more active in that instead of like, just passively waiting for opportunities. 

“The one thing from the program that has helped [in my] angel investing is that I became a bit more active in that instead of like, just passively waiting for opportunities.”

Never underestimate the power of networks

Paulo: Kudos to that. And before heading into our next segment, I have a couple of few questions to wrap up our whole conversation here, which has really been a conversation about your journey in your career, right. And now that you’re still in Indonesia, you’ve been here for a few years already, what is the biggest challenge from your perspective for tech startups in the market today and how do you see the ecosystem maturing or evolving in the next five years? 

Ky: When I came here — I don’t even want to talk about the ecosystem — but I think when I came here back in 2015, the biggest challenge was really the tech talent shortage. But I feel like nowadays with coding academies, I feel the tech talent shortage is not that big of an issue anymore as it used to be many years ago.

Now it’s more like, let’s say I want to start a startup today. Founders still don’t have the ecosystem to support them to build a startup. So it has to be really [the case where] they have to build it by themselves, just like with Gojek and Moka and all that, you just build your startup by yourself. 

Maybe there’s a VC or investor who is closer and gives you advice. But other than that, that’s not much. So I think that the ecosystem is still missing for tech startups to really flourish and more people willing to take the risk to start a business because they know there’s a lot of support from the ecosystem for them. 

“When I came here back in 2015, the biggest challenge was really the tech talent shortage…Now it’s more like, let’s say I want to start a startup today. Founders still don’t have the ecosystem to support them to build a startup.”

Paulo: A common thread throughout all these insights in terms of how the ecosystem has evolved is, in terms of talent, it goes back to people, how do you develop founder talent? How do you develop tech talent?  And definitely with remote working, there’s a lot more visibility in terms of engineering talent I’d say. 

Another concluding question I just wanted to ask is what’s your advice for startup operators like yourself, what’s your advice for them when it comes to venturing into angel investing here in the region?

Ky: First they should join IVA. I genuinely believe that it really helps with focus [for somebody who is] similar to my background. Let’s say you have a lot of tech startup experience as an operator and, you have actually most of [what] it takes already, but I think what’s still missing is like, where do I start? And [there’s] the network that I mentioned. And I feel like IVA is really that kind of enabler for that. 

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But aside from that, I think it’s important to really build a network within the startup community. So in my role, I also had a lot of contact with other startups, when it comes to either a partnership or the integration or whatever it is. 

Since beginning in MOCA [I was in] touch with a lot of startups. So you also [need to] build that kind of network because the startup community in Indonesia is actually small. Somehow everyone knows everyone. My advice is really to take the time to build a network and [not just] network within your company, but also outside your company.

And over time you really make your first investment that way. And once you make the first engine investment, the rest follow. And I feel like that would be my advice for tech operators looking to angel invest. 

“Let’s say you have a lot of tech startup experience as an operator and, you have actually most of [what] it takes already, but I think what’s still missing is like, where do I start?”

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What are the top 3 traits an angel investor should /not/ have?

Ky: What you should have is definitely startup experience, right? You should be trustworthy and  reliable, right? Because founders will need your help early on and what you should not be is overly risk averse. As I mentioned, you cannot always trust data. There’s so much data available, so sometimes you have to take a bit of a risk here [and there]. So if you’re too risk averse, don’t go into angel investing.

What digital technology/innovation excites you the most today?

Ky: For me, it’s SaaS, social commerce, and FinTech. [There are] like my own spaces that I know, but I feel like also not only because I know these spaces, but I just still feel like these spaces have a lot of opportunities.

Biggest misconception about raising from angels? 

Ky: I think the misconception is that people think it’s just a bit of dumb money, in the sense that it’s just money, but nothing else, right. We call that dumb money, but you should be more strategic in picking angels because picking the right angels can open up a lot of doors, in terms of network, either partnership or like potential hires through an angel, right. And [being] strategic [means] you should be very picky [in] choosing the right angels, not just taking everyone’s [money]. 

Most memorable class / course? What did you learn?

Ky: To be honest, I think overall IVA was a great experience, right? And then the most memorable courses were always the ones where we had to go into those breakout rooms with other people that you’re not in the same team with, but then you brainstorm to solve [problems] together. 

And I think that was also great to actually mingle with teams beyond your own team only. I think that was the most memorable when we had to do case studies, as you know, for example, find an exit strategy for the startup…And then we would quickly brainstorm and discuss. I think that was just very fun and memorable for me.

If you were to start a company today in Southeast Asia, what problem would it be solving?

Ky: Because I’m in Indonesia, I always look at problems at scale because there are 200 to 500 million people. You automatically think about how you solve a problem at scale. Not just for a small group, but how you can make a big difference and have a big impact, especially in a large country, like Indonesia. 

Of course, you start small, but I would probably look at solving a problem around the unbanked population, education, manual processes for SaaS, cause it’s still a very large issue. 

What do you do to de-stress?

Ky: During the work-from-home in COVID, I actually bought a bike. So what I do is I bike around the neighborhood, right? Of course, it’s good for exercising, but also just good to be a bit outside, to relax and drive around the neighborhood. 

I also got a Nintendo switch from my wife for Christmas. I’m also playing that from time to time to just de-stress. I actually play Pokemon [because of the] childhood memories. But I’m also playing Mario Kart, Super Smash, just fun games with my wife to just relax and then de-stress.