We’re back with another special call brought to you by Insignia Ventures Academy, with Jason Chew, an alumnus of Cohort 2, founder of Codeless, a Southeast Asia-focused no-code accelerator, and most recently co-founder of KopiDAO, a learning community DAO accelerating Web3 adoption. Get to know more about his work in no-code and web3, the value of building developer and founder communities for tech adoption, and supporting the growth of Malaysia’s startup ecosystem.
Highlights and Timestamps
- (00:48) Paulo introduces Jason Chew; “…for Southeast Asia’s tech ecosystem, I’m very excited to see how fast Web3 can actually grow in this region.”
- (02:36) No-Code Perspective on Driving Web3 Adoption; “…we are trying to teach them ways that you can launch NFT projects on these blockchains without actually coding…there’s actually a lot of low code and no code resources out there that maybe can allow you to use languages that you’re more familiar with…”
- (09:16) Democratizing Digital Creation through No Code; “…so Web3 no-code tools are on the rise right now, and it really is, to the extent of these developers making things [more] accessible for people, and that’s what really defines them as a product, as a good no-code product.”
- (13:21) Implications of No Code for End-Users and Investors; “On the investor perspective, you need to identify how sophisticated really is the product…it’s essentially looking at how they intend to manage their tech debt…The beauty about all these no-code tools, essentially [is that] they are just software platforms in the cloud and they typically have very robust APIs.”
- (19:25) Increasing Visibility into Malaysia’s Startup Ecosystem; “In fact, for investors, if we can tackle that visibility issue, it’s actually the best place to spot early stage startups that are essentially unpolished gems.”
- (24:16) Out of the Comfort Zone with Insignia Ventures Academy; “…you’re able to breach into different industries and be exposed to all these other different industries by communicating with your fellow peers and all that. And it just generally lets you kind of understand what’s going on in the whole ecosystem rather than just staying in my own particular bubble…”
- (26:51) Rapid Fire Round;
About our guest
Jason Chew is a serial entrepreneur and he is the founder of Codeless, a Southeast Asia-focused no-code accelerator. With extensive experience as a startup ecosystem builder, he is building no-code and Web3 communities that are focused on creating opportunities for founders. Jason’s latest venture is KopiDAO, a learning community DAO accelerating Web3 adoption.
Paulo: We have on call with us today, Jason Chew, who is not only an alumnus of Insignia Ventures Academy, but he’s also the founder of Codeless, a no-code accelerator based in Malaysia. He’s also a very active startup tech operator in the Malaysian startup ecosystem. He’s been around for a while supporting different founders and being a founder himself.
Nowadays, he primarily supports and teaches non-tech professionals and leaders how to build tech companies without code. And on the side, he also does a little bit of angel investing as well. So really excited to have him on call. So welcome to the show, Jason, how have you been doing?
Jason: I’m good. Thank you so much for having me on the call.
Paulo: Thanks for coming on. And it’s only been a few weeks since Cohort Two ended. How would you describe your IVA experience so far?
Jason: It’s been great. So I think mainly for IVA, [I] have made a lot of friends as well along the way. So we’ve always been in touch and just helping each other and seeing what we’re up to.
Paulo: It’s always exciting to see what happens after the program. Of course, in the program, as one of the organizers myself, there’s that growth journey within the program, but then it’s also exciting to see what happens when the participants start to work with each other outside of the program as well.
Speaking of which, what are you working on these days? What excites you these days about Southeast Asia’s tech ecosystem?
Jason: Currently, I’m actually building and doing something in stealth right now. I’m building a DAO in stealth right now. But mainly, I would say that for Southeast Asia’s tech ecosystem, I’m very excited to see how fast Web3 can actually grow in this region.
There’s always been a saying that Southeast Asian people are very tech-savvy, and it’s mainly because of our willingness to also adapt and also to adopt.
So I’m very excited because there’s a lot of innovation happening right now, simply because people are willing to try new things and it creates this flywheel effect [where] more people are going online, more businesses going online and then more talents coming into the ecosystem, more funding and all that. So that’s why [we’re] in very exciting times in Southeast Asia.
“…for Southeast Asia’s tech ecosystem, I’m very excited to see how fast Web3 can actually grow in this region.”
No-Code Perspective on Driving Web3 Adoption
Paulo: Since you mentioned about Web3, I want to explore that space a little bit with you. So obviously a lot of the adoption has been through, I would say, crypto wallets, crypto trading, gaming, with Axie Infinity and all of that. So how do you see DAO’s playing a role in really driving that adoption here in Southeast Asia, say vis-a-vis other markets?
Jason: I will say that Web3 adoption requires a lot of push and momentum. And the key has always been to get more people in. Because people in Web3, or like these DeFi people, there’s this term that they call “degens”, they are mainly into trading and it’s just basically a small pool of people jumping from blockchain to blockchain and protocol to protocol.
So I believe that onboarding people is very important. So there are a few ways that we intend to kind of tackle that. So hopefully, let’s say non-technical people looking to launch, let’s say NFT projects, we are trying to teach them ways that you can launch NFT projects on these blockchains without actually coding. Even with doing generative art, you can use all these no-code tools to help you with coming up with this artwork.
Paulo: So the tools are all out there. It’s just a matter of knowing which those are out there and getting access to them.
“…we are trying to teach them ways that you can launch NFT projects on these blockchains without actually coding…there’s actually a lot of low code and no code resources out there that maybe can allow you to use languages that you’re more familiar with…”
Paulo: And so zooming out again, you talked about Web3 developers transitioning from Web2 to Web3, cause you mentioned that Web3 is very much a work in progress and still a long way to go. What are some of the key gaps, from your point of view, in terms of the existing infrastructure and perception?
Jason: I would say the services and also people that are interested in Web3 is not gaining enough momentum yet. Because again there are not enough services out there that people would come across in their daily lives. So there’s the saying that we are in the age of makers and creators.
So actually a lot of these DAOs are trying to focus more towards these makers and creators.
Hopefully, they can build products, maybe even simple products or NFT projects that can onboard more people into web three. And again, Web3 is the unknown right now.
It is something people will need to brave the waters for. It’s very exciting, as more people come on, they will start to realize that maybe certain things need to be changed as well. So definitely I would say focusing more on the adoption first to get people on board in terms of infrastructure is sufficient enough. To get the whole working in Web3 idea going, that’s definitely sufficient as of today.
“…actually a lot of these DAOs are trying to focus more towards these makers and creators.”
And that really stems from your focus background for the past few years in terms of no code. So maybe you can share with us how you got into no code in the first place and how you’ve ended up now currently, the founder of Codeless, a no-code accelerator. So maybe you can talk a little bit more about that.
Jason: So I think it started off with my passion [for] building digital products. And [I’m] basically really obsessed with automation. So essentially at Codeless right now, we mainly teach non-technical people to build these so-called digital products as well, like they are looking to launch a marketplace for example, or building something within [their] organization.
But on top of that, [Codeless is] also focusing on the developers as well. I liked that you used the word democratizing tech, [because] in a way we are trying to onboard a lot more non-technical folks that are able to think more like a developer. It enables them to communicate better within their business units.
I would always say who knows better to sell the product than the salespeople, so when those people get any kind of feedback, I know that they want to communicate [that] back to the dev team. If they have gone through this kind of like let’s say, citizen development, basically getting them to participate in any kind of development projects as well, it will be able to create this kind of ecosystem that is more inclusive.
Circling back to Codeless was actually started off as a local community, when I was also building my startup, back then called HeyOmni. HeyOmni was a startup completely built using no code at the beginning. I have a couple of interesting stories like how Facebook banned us, and all that.
Long story short, HeyOmni first started as just a chatbot. So we were using a chatbot builder to very simply put out a membership bot to help retailers manage their membership points. But the idea is that we are saying that there’s no longer a need for any kind of app. Because putting myself on the spot or yourself on the spot, when was the last time have you really downloaded an app for example, and even if you download an app, how long has it been since you opened up that app and how often do you really use it, unless it’s like something that is like Facebook or Instagram?
So the idea is that we wanted to create kind of like this app-less ecosystem and we decided to leverage on messaging platforms. Because what we’re telling the retailers is that you don’t need to get your customers to really download an app when they are already on Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp.
Paulo: Hence omnichannel.
Jason: Exactly. So we can just very simply put a bot on these channels that communicate back and forth, and that’s how it also led to Facebook banning us because Facebook data was [tracking] a lot of activity coming on and all that. But yeah, I think that’s a story for a different day.
“I liked that you used the word democratizing tech, [because] in a way we are trying to onboard a lot more non-technical folks that are able to think more like a developer. It enables them to communicate better within their business units.”
Democratizing Digital Creation through No Code
Paulo: I really like the fact that you even prior to setting up this community Codeless and building it out into an accelerator that really builds these no code ventures, you had already yourself [done it with] HeyOmni.
I want to touch upon the fact that you said that you help non-tech folks think like developers, right? What does that mean exactly, to think like a developer as a non-tech person?
Jason: Typically I would say that we break it down to building blocks for these non-technical folks. So what we teach over there is that we really teach them in terms of how to think like a developer, and even be a “no-code developer”, and this is a big term, in a sense that we are trying to claim that anyone and everyone without any kind of technical background can also be a developer.
Because once they understand this kind of framework that they can create for themselves, essentially we provide them a way to kind of look into how to become a developer with having tech stacks as well. So a no-code developer does have their own tech stack similar to what a developer would have.
Take for example, a developer right now, and let’s say they use MERN stack, And now they’re building on React and they have these four components that make up the web app. That’s [actually] a no-code developer.
You are also looking at the same thing because typically you are basically a MacGyver. You’re combining all these tools together to make up these so-called [tech] stacks. So you have front-end tools. You have the backend tools. You have the database tools. You have the automation tools.
And once you know how to put these tools together, essentially you can make up your tech stack. So that’s how you can kind of identify and be able to communicate with developers even better in the future if you are trying to flesh out full-service project, for example.
“So a no-code developer does have their own tech stack similar to what a developer would have.”
Paulo: Given this framework and supposedly it should be applicable to any kind of thing that you want to build, are there any bags of solutions that lend themselves more easily to no-code versus others?
Jason: That’s a great question. So I would say that 90% of the products in the market right now can be built using no code. And the simplest ones that lend themselves more readily to no-code are things [like] an e-commerce site, a marketplace app, directory-like apps, and simple internal tooling [for] let’s say you are trying to automate your Google sheet to your inventory system, something like that. It’s typically those kinds of apps that are easier to build using no code.
Paulo: Given that spectrum of things that can be built using no code, are there certain things on the other end of that spectrum, which are super impractical at the moment that you wish could be built in no code?
Jason: So, I mean there’s really an abundance of tools trying to tackle every kind of solution out there, but I would say that, things like let’s say more towards AI, machine learning, AR, VR, and obviously Web3 — so Web3 no-code tools are on the rise right now, and it really is, to the extent of these developers making things [more] accessible for people, and that’s what really defines them as a product, as a good no-code product.
Jason: There’s a lot of it. So off the top of my head, I can’t think of like a specific one, but what I like to do in terms of Web3 is that typically if you go to even sites like ProductHunt, for example. So ProductHunt, I love ProductHunt because simply of two things.
And this is both applicable to no code and Web3 as well, is that you can go on there and as a developer, you can kind of get some inspirations as to what other developers are building, in terms of providing people that kind of access and luxury to not code so much, but able to access whatever they want to do.
And on the flip side, there’s a lot of innovation happening [and] all these so-called software platforms and tools, they are mushrooming up daily, and there is a good chance that you might come across a good one that you can actually start implementing into your projects.
“…so Web3 no-code tools are on the rise right now, and it really is, to the extent of these developers making things [more] accessible for people, and that’s what really defines them as a product, as a good no-code product.”
Implications of No Code for End-Users and Investors
Paulo: So I think there’s definitely, I like the word that you used, mushrooming, and I think it’s also definitely going to happen in waves where you have these already Web2 developers transitioning into Web3, and then once they build no-code tools, then you have non-technical people following suit as well.
Since we’ve focused a lot on Web3 and no code from the perspective of creators and makers, I also wanted to talk about no code from the perspective of other stakeholders. So for example, when it comes to like projects or apps, what are the implications then for end users of these solutions? Is there any, or is the goal really not to know what’s in the pudding?
Jason: That’s a good question as well. I would say that typically end-users, they usually can’t really tell if your product is actually built using no code, or rather I would say that they don’t care as long as your product is functional and allows them to kind of interact with you, then the experience will generally be quite seamless.
Then again, I would say that in terms of, if you’re building on these so-called no-code tools, that uniqueness and customization might be a little bit more lacking because typically you are working with templates and certain things that are quite limited to what the software platform itself is able to provide you and what you can build upon it to provide your users.
But again, that being said as well, there’s a little bit of something we call low code, which is by adding your own little bit of coding and touch to it, you can kind of provide something that is more branded towards your own identity as well.
“…typically for end-users, they usually can’t really tell if your product is actually built using no code, or rather I would say that they don’t care as long as your product is functional and allows them to kind of interact with you, then the experience will generally be quite seamless.”
Paulo: Would you say it’s really dependent on what you see as important to build sort of in-house what you can sort of lend to no-code or low-code platform as a third party
Jason: Mainly what we tell people about no-code tools is that what it really excels at is building MVPs. Building an MVP in the sense that you want to be able to do what is most important, which is validate because the faster you can launch the faster you can put your product out there into the market, [and] you can realize what works and what doesn’t work.
So that being said, no-code tools generally, like if you fall within the 90% of the product spectrum, can bring you far enough down the road, even after your MVP level. That’s definitely still workable up until you decide that you want more flexibility.
“…what we tell people about no-code tools is that what it really excels at is building MVPs. Building an MVP in the sense that you want to be able to do what is most important, which is validate…”
Paulo: How about on the side of investors? How do you think, since you’ve been talking to a lot of founders and you know their struggles and pain points, when it comes to building solutions and how no code helps that but also has some limitations at the same time. How do you think investors should think about investing in no-code startups?
Jason: From the investor perspective, you need to identify how sophisticated really is the product. So in terms of the product, it might not be too sophisticated tech-wise, but in terms of the idea, if the product is able to be executed on a very simple product, that’s great. So you kind of need to identify how much really is riding on no code, so as long as you know the kind of no-code products or local platforms and third party platforms that they’re using can be easily be replaced with alternatives moving forward.
And these are two things: be it, if the startup has outgrown this platform, or this service does go offline. So that’s one of the main concerns for both, let’s say no code developers and even investors, is that if you are leveraging so much on these kinds of platforms, what happens if these platforms actually cease to exist?
Paulo: The reliability of the platforms is important.
Jason: There are a few ways to counter that in the sense that it’s essentially looking at how they intend to manage their tech debt. Because they are leveraging on these platforms, essentially if these platforms [have] an abundance of alternatives out there in the market, you typically don’t have a problem.
But I think without downplaying the capability of no code, as well as the main [point] of building on no-code is that you’re able to build out that foundation first. And as you grow the beauty of no code is that if we circle back to what I mentioned before is that we are looking at things like building blocks, when you scale and when you have more users, hopefully, you have more budget, and you get more developers onboard and you actually built something that you own, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to replace all of these building blocks at one go.
[So you’re] basically taking out certain parts that you need to scale to replace it with a more customized solution. The beauty about all these no-code tools, essentially [is that] they are just software platforms in the cloud and they typically have very robust APIs. In fact, I would argue that it is a very good way to keep your tech team lean as well. And not only that, it goes back to promoting more collaboration within the organization, because you don’t need to build custom platforms and custom dashboards that your organization wants to use.
And when you build these custom dashboards, essentially you also need to onboard people. You need to train them how to use these dashboards, whereas with no-code tools, if we are, let’s say interacting with things as simple as Google Sheets. It’s pretty safe to assume that anyone and everyone right now should be able to navigate around Google Sheets, and it’s very easy to onboard them.
“On the investor perspective, you need to identify how sophisticated really is the product…it’s essentially looking at how they intend to manage their tech debt…The beauty about all these no-code tools, essentially [is that] they are just software platforms in the cloud and they typically have very robust APIs.”
Paulo: So you’ve been running Codeless for around more than a year or so, and you’ve seen a lot of different founders and seen a lot of different projects emerge. What are some of the more interesting use cases that you’ve seen of no-code?
Jason: So I think mainly right now for the non-technical people that they want to create side hustles for themselves, and see if it’s a viable business moving forward. So typically these people are looking to build marketplace apps, directory apps, and also entrepreneurs [using] no tools to build out their automation within the organization.
I would say more interesting things other than that are people who are looking to leverage on these local tools to build games, 3D games, AI, and ML stuff. And I think mainly even towards chatbots, there could be more innovation with what we call conversational AI.
So it’s basically training this AI to really be able to decipher languages. And this is actually an interesting topic. Let’s say in Malaysia, traditional conversational AI is having a lot of difficulties deciphering the Malaya language because of all the slang and lingos, so there’s definitely a lot of innovation there in terms of even if you’re just looking to use no code to the build-out a very sophisticated chatbot, there is a need in the market as of right now.
Paulo: So HeyOmni 2.0, so to speak.
“…mainly right now for the non-technical people that they want to create side hustles for themselves, and see if it’s a viable business moving forward.”
Increasing Visibility into Malaysia’s Startup Ecosystem
Paulo: So you talked about Malaysia and I found it really interesting about that nuance that startups have to navigate in terms of chatbots and B2C startups where they have to take into account the complexity of the language.
How would you say the adoption of no-code, Web3, and these technologies that we’ve discussed, has evolved in Malaysia in particular? What are the barriers or challenges specifically in Malaysia?
Jason: I would say that the whole no-code movement in Malaysia, and I think generally Southeast Asia, has been picking up quite well, I guess in terms of the challenges is that maybe there’s not enough awareness yet and not enough visibility. So visibility has always been a big thing for most Malaysian startups.
I think the other thing is a lot of people might already be practicing no-code without realizing it. Because essentially no code is just a framework for you to think about how you can combine these tools to make up more robust services.
Typically, if you’re in your office, you’re using Trello, you’re using WordPress, so things as simple as WordPress, right? WordPress is a no-code tool. Wix is a no-code tool as well. But I think the general misconception for people is that even for developers is that when they think about no code tools, they will think about tools like that — WordPress and Wix.
And [they] will think that no code is just to build landing pages, blogs, and all that. But in a sense that no code is actually more towards urging you, even as a developer, [that you] don’t have to code everything from the ground up. There are actually a lot of these API services platforms that you can leverage to deploy faster.
So this is especially attractive for non-technical people because they don’t need to go through a fully-fledged webdev course in order to just build on a very simple product. Again, 90% of the product is in a market that they want. It’s a different take and different spin to it that they want to do.
And obviously, there are more creative products coming out [from] people that maybe they have already mastered how to use API and they see all these platforms that they can put together, [and] basically come up with their own service.
“…a lot of people might already be practicing no-code without realizing it. Because essentially no code is just a framework for you to think about how you can combine these tools to make up more robust services…no code is actually more towards urging you, even as a developer, [that you] don’t have to code everything from the ground up.”
Paulo: Yeah. I think it just speaks to this whole trend towards more API-based solutions. and that coincides with the cloud as well, where we can sort of access all of these APIs too. So I guess all the pieces are falling in place for greater adoption here and just zooming out from no code and to Malaysia as a whole, having been involved in the ecosystem, even before HeyOmni as well. Maybe you can share with our listeners, how can people outside of the country look at the Malaysian startup ecosystem and how it has evolved?
Jason: Malaysia has tremendous potential. It has always had tremendous potential, right? If we really zoom into one point, if you are looking at the Malaysian startup ecosystem, it really is the best place for startup incubation.
We have lower living costs here, and there are really no shortages of talents and support. In fact, for investors, if we can tackle that visibility issue, it’s actually the best place to spot early-stage startups that are essentially unpolished gems.
If I go to your second point [on] how has it evolved, I would say that throughout the years, support within the local ecosystem definitely increased, drastically I would say so more and more programs are coming out to spur the growth of local startups.
And most importantly the collaboration. I can see that between all the operators within the space has definitely increased. There are a lot of people supporting each other, be it founders, operators, or even corporations.
Paulo: And so in the next, five years or so, what do you think needs to happen and what role do you see yourself playing in it?
Jason: If I go back to that one point, I really want to talk about today is definitely the visibility part.
So let’s say people looking into Malaysia is that it’s a good thing that [there are] programs and initiatives coming up within Malaysia itself. But for us in Malaysia, we are quite guilty in terms of like, we work a lot in silos, especially with different units, and different states even have different initiatives for different people, but there’s not enough consolidation that when you just look into Malaysia and you can immediately see all the initiatives going on, and these are all the cool startups doing cool things.
So visibility definitely is the thing that we are looking to resolve. So as for myself being an operator here in the local startup ecosystem is that we are at least trying to get more founders in first, right there, giving them the tools to build startups, build upon their ideas, and then giving them that platform to be visible as well. So that they play a more center-stage role in the global market.
“In fact, for investors, if we can tackle that visibility issue, it’s actually the best place to spot early stage startups that are essentially unpolished gems.”
Out of the Comfort Zone with Insignia Ventures Academy
Paulo: And speaking to visibility, I really liked the fact that you’re working in no code and Web3, which are very much borderless platforms and solutions where it’s much easier to become a global company, building solutions through these technologies.
So now I want to shift gears and talk about Insignia Ventures Academy. As I mentioned earlier, you were an alumnus from Cohort Two, and just like to know how you found out about Academy and how you decided to join first of all.
Jason: When I first applied for IVA I wanted the experience on the other side of the table, given my experience being a startup founder myself, I really wanted to view myself through a VC lens and perspective and more towards maybe a more regional player lens as well. And on top of that, I guess I’ve also started venturing into doing some small angel investing and I wanted to learn and network with people.
Paulo: What’s the biggest thing that you gained from the experience? Would you say.
Jason: I will say just generally being able to learn from people and from their experiences, a group of people that comes from very diverse backgrounds. So there’s a lot to learn from all of these people. I would say that the mentors that joined in and shared their experiences were also very open and didn’t hold back with their sharing. So this is actually the crash course that I really needed. It’s something that the time commitment is just about right, and it’s about three months, and within that short period of three months, the amount of things I’ve learned is really quite great.
Paulo: Maybe you could share one particular learning. It could be from a fellow participant or mentor.
Jason: So generally being able to look at other businesses as well. Like you’re able to breach into different industries and be exposed to all these other different industries by communicating with your fellow peers and all that. And it just generally lets you kind of understand what’s going on in the whole ecosystem rather than just staying in my own particular bubble that’s focusing on like in Web3 or no-code and keep talking about that. It’s kind of boring. That was great because I was actually put into the food tech team, it has nothing to do with crypto. And that was quite the experience, I would say.
Paulo: As of this recording, we’re just about to enter into Cohort Three. And by the time you guys are there listening to this call, it’s probably already halfway through that part. So what would you say to venture fellows of Cohort 3 and future cohorts when it comes to making the most out of the Insignia Academy experience?
Jason: Just have an open mind. Try to commit to the program and your team. Because I think that’s one thing that I was really blessed [with]. I got paired up with quite the all-star team that was willing to commit to the program and each other. You’re keeping each other accountable you’re learning things together.
So it was really quite a great experience in the sense that we were just a small unit and being able to network and being able to be in the presence of like-minded people is great. You just have to be open-minded and just be willing to learn.
“…you’re able to breach into different industries and be exposed to all these other different industries by communicating with your fellow peers and all that. And it just generally lets you kind of understand what’s going on in the whole ecosystem rather than just staying in my own particular bubble…”
Rapid Fire Round
Favorite book / podcast / resource to learn about no-code (apart from yourself)?
Jason: Yeah, I think learn by doing, so just go to ProductHunt and explore the other products there.
Favorite book / podcast / resource to learn about web3 and DAOs?
Jason: Go to Twitter, that’s something that people won’t tell you, but go to Twitter and dive deep into those threads that are basically gold mines. Follow Jason on Twitter.
Most memorable class / course? What did you learn?
Jason: The most memorable one recently is a course that I’ve taken on just blockchain in general. It’s called DAPP University. It’s run by this guy called Gregory and he actually has a lot of free materials to learn about Solidity. So if you’re a developer and you want to brush up on solidity, practice writing some smart contracts, that’s a good one.
If you were to start a company today in Southeast Asia, what problem would it be solving?
Jason: Definitely in the ed-tech space, providing alternative education and reinventing the way people learn.
What would you say are the top three traits of startup founders?
Jason: Adaptability, I would say, motivation, and just determination,
Are there any particular NFT artist or genres that you particularly like?
Jason: So I particularly like pixel art stuff, which a lot of people hate, I’ll put it that way. So I’ve been on multiple blockchains now and then there’s a lot of these projects, [but] I think it really depends on what you like. But I would say if you want to invest in NFTs, think about the utility and how they provide longevity to the project itself.
What’s your favorite go-to destination in Southeast Asia? / What trip are you most looking forward to taking?
Jason: I would say Bali. I’m very much looking forward to going back to Bali for a long, well-deserved vacation.
Favorite activity to de-stress?
Jason: When I do have free time, I actually like playing some games on PS4. I played this game called Destiny, pretty much the only game that I do play nowadays.