“As a marketer, we’re not selling products, we’re selling aspirations…and creating stories,” says Chief Marketing Officer of Indonesian e-commerce enabler Shipper: Jessica Hendrawidjaja. She shares from a global career spanning more than a decade in marketing what it means to sell aspirations. She also talks about how Shipper’s collaboration and education-focused approach to marketing is bridging innovation possibilities between legacy and e-commerce brands (with initiatives like the upcoming Legendary Brand Festival). We also talk about how her work as a marketer and angel investor is investing in entrepreneurial stories that are shaping the Indonesian economy.

Check out the full call on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube!

Learn more about the Legendary Brand Festival

Highlights and Timestamps

(01:17) From M&A hire to three years in the blink of an eye: Jess’s Shipper journey;

“I actually started in another logistics tech startup called Porter; that’s back in 2018…we did that by decentralizing post office management, growing a network of mom-and-pop shop agents to 12,000 across Indonesia in just one year. That’s when I met Budi and Phil from Shipper in 2019…in February 2020 Shipper acquired us and it was really the right timing because it was right before the pandemic…Phil and Budi made sure that the transition was very smooth. Again, we share the same values across the company. So it was a very smooth transition.”

(03:56) What it Means to Be CMO with a Mission to Enable 62 million SMEs and Beyond;

“So as CMO, my goal is to make sure Shipper is on top of every business owner’s mind, especially in Indonesia. Just like any marketing [effort], brand awareness is definitely what we aim for, and from there, also customer acquisition. Because we believe in the service that we offer to SMEs, this is something that can help them grow exponentially, especially during the pandemic and even today. So we want to make sure that everyone knows us and eventually uses our service.”

(07:17) A Legendary Approach to Bridging Innovation Between Legacy and E-commerce Brands: The Legendary Brand Festival;

“There has been a global fear of an impending recession, and that this will impact businesses all across the globe, especially SMEs…we will be having these major legendary brands in Indonesia to share insights and stories about how they grew their business over the decades…SMEs can get insights on how to stay in business for decades because all these businesses have gone through multiple crises and recessions…legacy brands continue to look for ways to connect with the market and do market regeneration…new brands, the ones that are pretty much focused on e-commerce, can help these legacy brands to learn about and they can possibly group together through collaboration.”

(12:17) How Offline Engagements and Events are Win-Win For Shipper and the Indonesian Economy;

“We have the largest population in Southeast Asia, and we haven’t tapped everyone yet. That’s definitely an opportunity that all these brands, legacy or new ones, need to tap into, especially during the recession. The ones that have purchasing power are no longer the only ones that live in first-tier cities. The ones living in second and third-tier cities have purchasing powers but don’t know how to buy. So the question is how to enable that, right? So I think that’s a massive opportunity…So interestingly, SME business owners in second and third-tier cities are the most enthusiastic ones…”

(17:56) Jess the leader and angel investor;

“I realized that in marketing you cannot just push your own agenda. That’s a hard sell. So then you empathize with your audience and you create a message that aligns with their aspirations. That’s empathizing with what their aspirations are and aligning the message with that. You’re not selling products, you’re creating stories. I believe that’s good marketing for brand awareness. It’s never really selling the product, but selling stories and how those stories make your customer feel.”

(20:50) #MinuteMasterclass: What Early-Stage Founders and Marketers Should Keep in Mind as the Marketing Function Scales;

“Measure your marketing efforts, whatever that is. Measure it. Because when it’s hard to measure, it’s hard to justify. Especially for new startups, every dollar counts. So understand what is it that you wanna measure as well. Understand your metrics, and start tracking early before it becomes too big and you can’t track anything anymore.”

(22:09) #RapidFireRound;

About our guest

Jessica Hendrawidjaja is the Chief Marketing Officer of Shipper. Prior to Shipper, she was co-founder and CMO of logistics startup Porter acquired by Shipper in 2020. She has had more than a decade of experience in marketing, from PwC to NIFTIT. She received a BBA from the University of Washington and a Bachelor in International Marketing from Harvard University. She is also an angel investor.

Transcript

How an acquisition led Jess from being the founding CMO of a startup to becoming CMO of a growth-stage tech company

Paulo J: Can you share with us how you first joined Shipper, like how you found out about the company. What convinced you to join that company at that point? I think it was like two years ago or so. Shipper was definitely a different company then. So what made you decide to join that? And maybe you can share a little bit of what your first day or week. 

Jess H: It’s actually almost exactly three years ago. So I actually started in another logistics tech startup called Porter; that’s back in 2018. Our mission then was to widen access to logistics infrastructure in Indonesia. So we wanted to reach not just the first-tier cities, but also remote areas in Indonesia, enabling them with proper logistics infrastructure.

So we did that by decentralizing post office management and growing a network of mom-and-pop shop agents to 12,000 across Indonesia in just one year. That’s when I met Budi and Phil from Shipper in 2019. We’ve been talking a lot about how to digitize logistics in Indonesia. And finally, in February 2020, which is exactly two years ago, Shipper acquired us, we joined forces and it was really the right timing because it was right before the pandemic.

Right before the pandemic was the right timing because fortunately, due to the pandemic, the demand for logistics increased significantly, not only for the e-commerce space but also for the enterprise and B2B space. 

I clicked with [Budi and Phil] right away because our visions were aligned. What we want to do is pretty much aligned. We share the same values as well for the company. So everyone at Shipper is very entrepreneurial and always pushing to innovate and contribute to society. So that’s how I joined Shipper. 

Paulo J: And what was your first day or first week like? I guess it was just post-acquisition, so it must have been very hectic. 

Jess H: It was definitely hectic, but Phil and Budi made sure that the transition was very smooth. Again, we share the same values across the company. So it was a very smooth transition. 

Paulo J: In this market especially, there’s a lot of talk about M&A opportunities and all of that, and I always mentioned Shipper’s acquisition of Pakde and Porter as a good example. It’s great to know that you’re part of that story. And then you got to join Shipper through that. So definitely something great came out of that. 

Jess H: But definitely no time to breathe at all at that time because the pandemic happened right away. So it was obviously just like work, work, work until today. Suddenly it’s already three years. It just happened in the blink of an eye. 

“I actually started in another logistics tech startup called Porter; that’s back in 2018…we did that by decentralizing post office management, growing a network of mom-and-pop shop agents to 12,000 across Indonesia in just one year. That’s when I met Budi and Phil from Shipper in 2019…in February 2020 Shipper acquired us and it was really the right timing because it was right before the pandemic…Phil and Budi made sure that the transition was very smooth. Again, we share the same values across the company. So it was a very smooth transition.”

What it Means to Be CMO with a Mission to Enable 62 million SMEs and Beyond

Paulo J: Obviously everybody’s familiar with the Chief Marketing Officer, but obviously that definition changes company to company. So can you share what that scope of work means for you with regard to Shipper’s mission as you mentioned earlier? How does your work as CMO in Shipper differ from previous experiences that you had? 

Jess H: So Shipper’s vision, as I mentioned, is moving society forward. Our mission is to make the supply chain accessible to everyone. Indonesia itself is a very entrepreneurial country. So as you know, we have 62 million SMEs and they contribute slightly over 61% of Indonesia’s total GDP. So that’s a lot. So this is a big opportunity that we believe in. 

We want to make sure that we enable these millions of SMEs to grow and contribute more to Indonesian economic development. During the pandemic, this was especially important. So this is where Shipper can help them the most — to continue their day-to-day operations, despite them stopping their offline business.

So as CMO, my goal is to make sure Shipper is on top of every business owner’s mind, especially in Indonesia. Just like any marketing [effort], brand awareness is definitely what we aim for and from there, also customer acquisition. Because we believe in the service that we offer to SMEs, this is something that can help them grow exponentially, especially during the pandemic and even today. So we want to make sure that everyone knows us and eventually uses our service. 

So we are a tech-enabled business and as we all know, historically, logistics has had very conventional and complex business processes. It’s also very expensive to have a robust logistics infrastructure. So this is a luxury that only big businesses can have. So usually enterprises have multiple warehouses across Indonesia or really reliable partners across Indonesia. Again, this is a luxury that only big businesses have. 

So what we do at Shipper is we aim to make sense of these complexities and implement technology to streamline these processes and make it easier for any business owner to access the robust supply chain infrastructure that wasn’t available to them before. So it is to them now. 

Shipper partners with logistics 3PL companies in Indonesia. So the major ones are already connected to our API. We also work with hundreds of transport partners, and we currently manage over 300 warehouses across Indonesia. So this is the supply chain network that all these small SMEs can tap into and use to grow their business.

We believe in our service, in our business model, and hopefully SMEs can grow with us as well, and that’s our message. We are their partner in growth. 

Paulo J: And I think even last year as well Shipper has been also enabling businesses beyond the logistics side as well.

Jess H: Correct. So I mean the e-commerce landscape is just growing every year or even every month, and every week it changes. So we do need to keep up with that trend. We need to see what’s happening in other countries as well. What are the technologies out there that we can implement in Indonesia and help Indonesian SMEs grow?

“So as CMO, my goal is to make sure Shipper is on top of every business owner’s mind, especially in Indonesia. Just like any marketing [effort], brand awareness is definitely what we aim for and from there, also customer acquisition. Because we believe in the service that we offer to SMEs, this is something that can help them grow exponentially, especially during the pandemic and even today. So we want to make sure that everyone knows us and eventually uses our service.”

A Legendary Approach to Bridging Innovation Between Legacy and E-commerce Brands

Paulo J: In line with that, I think even the marketing itself has gone beyond simply selling Shipper as a logistics enabler, and you’re actually having this particular event actually this month, which is the Legendary Brand Festival, which I think should be one of the biggest of its kind in Indonesia, especially with the partners that you have putting this together.

So maybe you can share with us a little bit about the event first, and then we can explore how this ties into your role and what you want to achieve within the company. 

Jess H: As a marketer, we’re not selling products, we’re selling aspirations. so that’s why our tagline is Teman Kamu Berjuang.

It’s basically saying we’re their partner to grow. It’s not the literal translation, but that’s the aspiration — we want to make sure every business is working with us to grow. So holding the Legendary Brand Festival is aligned with Shipper’s mission to support and empower SMEs in Indonesia. So, as you know, in late 2022, there has been a global fear of an impending recession, and that this will impact businesses all across the globe, especially SMEs.

So through this event, we want to empower SMEs by providing them access to knowledge and technology. We’re inviting our tech partners and our other partners, so hopefully they can create some partnerships through this event and help them grow their businesses despite the macroeconomic conditions.

At this event as well, we will be having these major legendary brands in Indonesia to share insights and stories about how they grew their business over the decades. So I mentioned legendary brands. These are the big brands of Indonesia that probably your audience already know.

We are inviting them as speakers, as panelists, and also as mentors to these SMEs so they can get insights on how to stay in business for decades because all these businesses have gone through multiple crises and recessions. 

So one story is there’s this business that we invited that’s called Buccheri. They are a shoe business that started in the nineties. So they’ve been around for 30 years now and they’ve gone through multiple crises. One story that sticks with me is their story during the ‘98 crisis in Indonesia. They used that crisis as an opportunity. So the owner said to me that’s when they decided that when everyone was closing their stores, they decided to open more stores.

So that was an opportunity for them. And they’re in business until today. They’re growing significantly. They have 120 retail outlets across Indonesia and the president wears their shoes. So it’s saying something about the brand that they’re building and the business that they’re building.

Paulo J: Thanks for sharing that example actually about the shoe company.

I think a lot to learn even for younger brands that are just starting out, or even startups to learn about how to go through these crises and take advantage of opportunities in a crisis. Maybe you can share examples of the other side. What are legacy brands that are part of this festival looking forward to learning about all these up-and-coming brands through this event? 

Jess H: So all these legendary brands are legacy brands. They’ve been in business for decades. And of course, they continue to look for ways to connect with the market and do market regeneration. So this is something that the new brands, the ones that are pretty much focused on e-commerce, can help these legacy brands to learn about and they can possibly group together through collaboration.

So one good collaboration that our brands have through this event is with Buccheri. So that’s the shoe company and there’s this new brand, called Humans (HMNS). So HMNS is a rising perfume brand in Indonesia. They sell products mostly on marketplace channels. And they’ve been growing so fast in the past few years and they even went to New York Fashion Week.

They have a massive following, and again, they’re in e-commerce. So this is something that Buccheri, the previously mentioned shoe company, wants to learn. So they collaborated and they’re going to create a new product that will be launched at the Legendary Brand Festival. And the distribution will be done online and offline.

So online will be on HMNS’ e-commerce channel while offline will be through Buccheri’s 120 outlets. So that’s a really good collaboration and that’s also a good regeneration for their target market. It’s good for Buccheri as the legacy brands get to expand to the Gen Z market. And also for HMNS to tap into the older generation that Buccheri has a very strong hold on. That’s something that we really look forward to and we look forward to more collaborations from other brands that participate in this event. 

“There has been a global fear of an impending recession, and that this will impact businesses all across the globe, especially SMEs…we will be having these major legendary brands in Indonesia to share insights and stories about how they grew their business over the decades…SMEs can get insights on how to stay in business for decades because all these businesses have gone through multiple crises and recessions…legacy brands continue to look for ways to connect with the market and do market regeneration…new brands, the ones that are pretty much focused on e-commerce, can help these legacy brands to learn about and they can possibly group together through collaboration.”

How Offline Engagements and Events are Win-Win For Shipper and the Indonesian Economy

Paulo J: That’s really a win-win-win, even also for Shipper being a platform and being able to connect all these brands together. Do you have a North Star in mind for this festival? What are you expecting to see or happen? I mean you already have product launches happening at the festival, but afterward, what are you expecting? How do you see this impacting Shipper’s ecosystem as a whole? 

Jess H: So for Shipper, these brands that are participating at the event are our customers or our future customers. So of course when there are collaborations happening, it will always impact positively to Shipper. We’re also inviting the SMEs, right?

So they probably don’t have a brand, but they’re are business — resellers or dropshippers — and those resellers and dropshippers probably become the resellers of the brands, whether the legacy or the new brands. And that’s also something that all these brands are looking for. They keep looking for new channels to sell their product.

And going to the resellers market and dropshipper market is huge. Through resellers and dropshippers, they can reach more customers, not just in first-tier cities, but second, third, and even fourth-tier cities across Indonesia. 

Paulo J: So I think you touched on something really interesting, which is that even the distribution enablers or not necessarily the brands themselves, but resellers and enablers and all of those kinds of companies also have something to benefit from these kinds of collaborations. What do you see as like the outlook this year for these kinds of companies, what are the opportunities for them in the market that you see specifically for Indonesia? 

Jess H: I think the opportunity is, again, to grow aggressively and expand their sales channels.

So when it comes to sales, I think brands are still limiting their scope of sales channels in the major cities. But the opportunities are massive in Indonesia, not just in first-tier cities or the major cities. There are more people outside of Jakarta, Medan. We have the largest population in Southeast Asia, and we haven’t tapped everyone yet.

That’s definitely an opportunity that all these brands, legacy or new ones, need to tap into, especially during the recession. The ones that have purchasing power are no longer the only ones that live in first-tier cities. The ones living in second and third-tier cities have purchasing powers but don’t know how to buy. So the question is how to enable that, right? So I think that’s a massive opportunity. 

Paulo J: I think it’s definitely interesting and actually a theme that we’re seeing a lot, even in Insignia’s own portfolio companies, a lot more focused beyond Jakarta and tier-one cities.

Jess H: I believe the new commerce way is enabling that through social commerce and chat commerce…

Paulo J: I remember we had a conversation with Shipper Chief Customer Officer Craig last year about how Indonesian sellers still wanna keep using WhatsApp. They still prefer to use WhatsApp and so technology is, I mean, it’s not necessarily innovation in a conventional way but more of fitting in towards what the existing behaviors are.

And going back to the Legendary Brand Festival, it’s certainly a big event for sure. And you mentioned a lot of legendary brands that are coming in and you’re also working with the government on this and a lot of SMEs also that you’re looking to see attend. But it’s actually not the first time that you guys are doing this kind of initiative that’s really focused on collaboration and education. 

So what has your approach been through coming up with this approach of education and collaboration as a marketing strategy? Zooming out, what is the long-term value that you see with this approach for Shipper, especially since, we’re in a market where companies are cutting costs, especially marketing costs and all of that? How do you see this really benefiting both the company and even the larger economy in the long term? 

Jess H: So we do work closely with the Indonesian government, and various institutions to educate SMEs. So when we say education, it’s not just like, “Hey, use Shipper.” We train them on branding. I think most SMEs also lack awareness when it comes to branding, so with that comes also marketing and sales operations. And most importantly, it’s actually financial literacy. So we believe that capacity building is important.

So having the right knowledge and business mindset are keys to SME growth and eventually Indonesian economic development. So as mentioned before, our vision is moving society forward and this is how we believe it will happen — through SMEs. It is an investment definitely that we make because we believe in that vision and want to make this training accessible to any SME business owners in Indonesia, especially in the second and third-tier cities.

So interestingly, SME business owners in second and third-tier cities are the most enthusiastic ones. When we go there or do even sometimes online training sessions with the SME owners, they’re definitely very hungry for knowledge. They’re very curious. They want to know what’s happening in Jakarta.

And they are craving this because they’re passionate about their business and they want to grow. So it’s really good to see that. And it’s really good to see their passion, to grow their business, to become something of a legendary brand one day. So in relation to Shipper, we have service offerings that businesses of all sizes can use. So for a small SME for example, they can just use our shipping aggregator service for pickups and for deliveries. And as they grow and they need a warehouse, for example, we have that as well. So we are creating an ecosystem for businesses, whether they’re SMEs or enterprises.

“We have the largest population in Southeast Asia, and we haven’t tapped everyone yet. That’s definitely an opportunity that all these brands, legacy or new ones, need to tap into, especially during the recession. The ones that have purchasing power are no longer the only ones that live in first-tier cities. The ones living in second and third-tier cities have purchasing powers but don’t know how to buy. So the question is how to enable that, right? So I think that’s a massive opportunity…So interestingly, SME business owners in second and third-tier cities are the most enthusiastic ones…”

Jess the leader and angel investor

Paulo J: Zooming into like your own experience as a leader, is there anything that you’ve had to unlearn throughout your time, leading marketing and comms at Shipper. Any ideas, habits, or perspectives that you’ve had to abandon in order to be able to be better at your role or move Shipper forward?

Jess H: I think throughout the years, it’s not that long but it’s been three years… 

Paulo J: Three years time in startup time is a pretty long time already.

Jess H: Yeah. I did learn to empathize more, which means empathizing with our internal teams and also with our customers especially. By doing that, I learn more about the other party, what are their aspirations, and align what we want to achieve together.

So yeah, I’m learning how to empathize more and have better listening skills today. I guess as I matured, I hope I’m more mature now over the past three years. That’s kind of like what I feel like I’ve learned in the past three years. 

Paulo J: Did you have a specific experience that made you realize the value or importance of that? 

Jess H: So the way I learned this is that I realized that in marketing you cannot just push your own agenda. That’s a hard sell. So then you empathize with your audience and you create a message that aligns with their aspirations. That’s empathizing with what their aspirations are and aligning the message with that.

You’re not selling products, you’re creating stories. I believe that’s good marketing for brand awareness. It’s never really selling the product, but selling stories and how those stories make your customer feel. 

Paulo J: So I think that actually ties in full circle with our discussion on Legendary Brand Festival, because as you mentioned earlier, in the beginning, the motivation for this is we need to address the aspirations of SME owners and all of that to really grow their business.

I wanted to shift gears a little bit and talk about your hat as an angel investor. I think you’ve actually co-invested in some companies as well. So maybe you can share how being an angel investor has impacted your work as a CMO and vice versa. 

Jess H: In a way, I get to listen to more stories, and listen to more entrepreneurs about their passion for building their company, and their aspiration for Indonesia as well. A lot of the investment that I made is for Indonesian startups because that’s also my personal value. I do want to develop Indonesia as the biggest economy in the world, hopefully, one day.

So I get to learn their stories, get to learn about their passion. I was a startup entrepreneur as well. So learning from my past mistakes, I advise them on things that they can avoid to not make the same mistakes, but in the end, I learn from them as well. So I learned about their drive and about how they build their business. I love this journey as an investor definitely. I learned a lot from this experience. 

“I realized that in marketing you cannot just push your own agenda. That’s a hard sell. So then you empathize with your audience and you create a message that aligns with their aspirations. That’s empathizing with what their aspirations are and aligning the message with that. You’re not selling products, you’re creating stories. I believe that’s good marketing for brand awareness. It’s never really selling the product, but selling stories and how those stories make your customer feel.”

#MinuteMasterclass: What Early-Stage Founders and Marketers Should Keep in Mind as the Marketing Function Scales

Paulo J: On that note, actually, my next question is also another advice question, and this is part of our minute masterclass corner. Having talked to a lot of early-stage founders and working at a growth stage, so you sort of see both sides. What one piece of advice would you give to like early-stage founders when it comes to market as the marketing function or their marketing initiative scales?

Jess H: My advice to any founders that I meet is really know your audience, who they are and what’s their behavior. Any marketing efforts should be really targeted. So marketing, again, is not just storytelling, but also needs to be data-driven. And we have the tools today, so use those tools to really understand your target market. There are a lot of social media dashboards that we can use as well. So that’s one, really understand your target audience. 

And two is to measure your efforts. Measure your marketing efforts, whatever that is. Measure it. Because when it’s hard to measure, it’s hard to justify. Especially for new startups, every dollar counts. Understand what is it that you wanna measure as well. Understand your metrics, and start tracking early before it becomes too big and you can’t track anything anymore. 

“Measure your marketing efforts, whatever that is. Measure it. Because when it’s hard to measure, it’s hard to justify. Especially for new startups, every dollar counts. Understand what is it that you wanna measure as well. Understand your metrics, and start tracking early before it becomes too big and you can’t track anything anymore.”

#RapidFireRound

Top three traits of a great CMO for you?

Jess H: A storyteller, data-driven, and customer-centric. 

What digital technology or in return excites you the most today?

Jess H: I like this question. AI especially ChatGPT is very interesting. But, I do feel like my fellow marketers will see this as a threat because it’s also replacing a lot of the copywriting and a lot of the things that marketers do as well. But ChatGPT is very interesting. really looking forward to what’s next from that. 

Paulo J: What’s the most interesting thing that you’ve asked ChatGPT to do? 

Jess H: Existential crisis questions.

What’s the most memorable class or course that you’ve taken or even taught if you’ve taught a class or course?

Jess H: This is very random as well, but the most memorable class was forensics science 101. It’s really random. I took it because it was just a requirement and I had to pick a class. And I took that, but it’s interesting. It’s also how to tell stories from data. And again, that’s what marketing does. We tell stories from the data that’s provided. 

Speaking of courses, if you were invited to give a lecture at Harvard University or Stanford, or some prestigious university, what would be the title of your lecture?

Jess H: First of all, I don’t think I will be invited. But I do want to teach negotiation. That’s something that I feel like I do every day. And as a marketer and as a business person as well, that’s a skill that I feel like not everyone has, but it’s a very important skill and it’s actually something that we do every day. And that’s an art. So that’s also what I love doing. Art of Negotiation would be the title. 

Looking back now, what is a skill, it could be a soft skill or a hard skill, that you believe you should have learned back in your time as a student?

Jess H: Well, this is easy. I should have taken my Chinese lessons better. I actually just said this today. I wish I took my Chinese lessons more seriously back then. Because this language, I think, it’s becoming more and more important as you know, globalization and the borders are just really opening up and we’re doing business with everyone. And especially from China now there’s a lot of business coming to Indonesia. but yeah, I should have learned that earlier. 

Paulo J: And I think even Shipper also has also some teams in China if I’m not mistaken. 

Jess H: Yep. That’s a market that we always look into because wherever they are, we’re five years behind, right? So that’s how we look forward. We benchmark from other countries.

If there’s something that you could automate in your job just by wishing for it, insert ChatGPT here, what aspect of that role would that be? 

Jess H: I don’t think it’s about automating, but this is just a wish. I wish I could teleport. I really wish I could teleport to place from place to place. Just because, there are just a lot of things to be done in different places now, so not really automating something, just like a wish that I wish could happen, but maybe in 10 years we can teleport.

What’s your favorite go-to destination in Southeast Asia? Or what trip are you most looking forward to taking in the region? 

Jess H: I used to go hiking a lot, so I do want to hike Kinabalu one day. I heard it’s a very hard hike, so I need to get back in shape, but hiking Kinabalu is something on my wishlist this year.

What’s your favorite activity to de-stress? 

Jess H: My favorite activity to de-stress watch Netflix. And just eat. So that’s kind of conflicting with going back to the gym and getting healthy. But I do like to chill and just watch tv. 

Paulo J: Anything that you recommend that you just watched? 

Jess H: There is this documentary about F1, that’s really good on Netflix. That would be a show that I would recommend for anyone that loves Formula One.

Anything else, like any book or any tools, or any resources that you’d like to recommend to our listeners?

Jess H: Well, that book by Chris Voss. That book is about negotiation. So he was an FBI agent. He negotiated life-or-death situations. So I read the book, and I watched his masterclass. Loved the way he delivered it. But that’s something that really changed my life, and how I’ve become a better negotiator and just a better business person in general. 

Paulo: And adding to the list of our recommendations is also to just check out if you guys will be able to join Legendary Brand Festival, and if you’re listening to this and are interested in learning more, do check that out. They’ll be posting a lot more about it on social media as well. So you can check out Shippers’ social media, to learn more about that.