From managing enterprise sales teams to adapting to Indonesia’s regulatory landscape and ensuring organizational maturity to secure ISO and AI-technology certifications, ⁠Vivi Mandasari⁠, COO of ⁠Verihubs⁠, has had to grow herself as much as she has helped grow the company since joining in 2019. She shares learnings from her journey thus far in this episode with specific focus on selling AI solutions for business in Indonesia. 

Learn more about Verihubs from ⁠CEO Rick Firnando⁠ and ⁠CTO Williem Williem⁠ in our conversations with them over the past two years.

Timestamps and Highlights

(01:08) What has Vivi’s journey been like from joining Verihubs in 2019 to becoming COO?

“If we describe the COO in Verihubs, [they] should be a very hard and agile person because regulations are changing massively. So we need to adapt [Verihubs] faster and we should prioritize the safety and reliability of our services, even small mistakes in every choice because it will be fatal for our clients’ business security and our reputation itself. If you ask me [what it’s like] to become the COO for Verihubs, it’s like I’m becoming a parent in the company.”

(05:09) How is Identity Verification and AI for Business in Indonesia evolving post-pandemic?

“Currently our technology is mostly needed by financial institutions or FinTech…as one of the main “backbones” in order to build a safe and confidential digital financial ecosystem for their stakeholders…We have some kind of use case for the hospitality and education [establishments]. So all our products are more adapted for other industries right now, but for the main use cases, it’s still for KYC…”

(09:39) What is the value and the experience like of receiving global certification for AI technologies?

“…we have received ISO 27001. That’s regarding the improving information security and management system, and also we have the certification for our AI. It’s called an NIST-FVRT [certification]. In participating in the NIST-FVRT certification with success in entering the category one to-one verification to many identification and presentation tech detection. With these three certifications, it proves our technology can become a reliable service in Indonesia and the world also.”

(12:25) What are some of Vivi’s learnings as a business leader on fraud risk management, leveraging customer insights, and managing BD and sales teams?

“Another important piece of advice is always [to sell] the product we offer as much as possible according to the client’s request, from those that we consider market leaders. When the product is considered feasible, all businesses from the same country will [follow suit].”

(15:46) #MinuteMasterclass: How to best approach selling software to enterprise and institutions?

“I want [to sell] all the [solutions here], but what can encourage the client, what is really their real problem? Is it about the verification yourself or is it about the fraud? If the call is about the fraud, how many fraud cases [do they] receive if they use that system? So you need to really encourage the client to get that kind of information. After that you can really know what you should sell to the clients.”

(17:41) #RapidFireRound;

About our guest

Vivi Mandasari is COO of Verihubs. She joined the company in 2019 as business development manager. She built her career through digital marketing and business development roles at various companies before joining Verihubs. 

Transcript

Continuous Agility From BD Manager to Becoming COO

Paulo J: It’s great to have you on and for our listeners to get to know you a little. I would love for you to be able to share with us how you decided to join Verihubs. I understand you were doing like a couple of BD roles in the past, digital marketing, all that stuff.

So how did you decide, or how did Rick convince you to join Verihubs? And maybe you can even share what your first few days were like. 

Vivi M: So back then in 2019, Williem offered for me to join Verihubs, becoming a BD [Manager]. It was a very hard decision because it’s really different from my background but I believed AI is the future. 

At the time, 2019 was the most challenging time for my career, meeting [clients] here and there, introducing and convincing [them to use] AI technology. It was not easy, because the market was not ready enough to adapt AI and then in 2020 the pandemic hit our country Indonesia. It was more challenging for us to meet other people offline. 

But the pandemic also changed our business. The AI [could be adopted] more easily because they need to switch from offline to online and carefully we’re blessed we can hit hundreds of trusted companies that trust in us and more aggressively get us some big fish for the company.

Paulo J: So now you have worked with Verihubs from those days in 2019 and you mentioned it was Williem who actually invited you to join as BD manager. And obviously, there was a lot of market education to let people know about this AI-powered solution to speed things up when it came to especially KYC processes, and to avoid things like fraud, which is like the whole story behind Verihubs.

And now you mentioned you have hundreds of customers now. And you have also leveled up yourself as a leader from BD Manager, now you’re COO. So maybe you can share a little bit what’s different now that you’re COO versus from when you started at Verihubs as business development manager?

Vivi M: So in Verihubs, the AI business is increasing massively. Verihubs also decided to build a good foundation for the company, not only the infrastructure, but also the organization’s structure style. 

So the BoD also thought about how to improve the organization structure because in a small startup like us, all the things are [usually] done through a one man show. When in BD I also did some finance, legal, compliance and marketing. 

So because of the things that I have learned about Verihubs from the beginning, the BoD called me to become the COO of the Verihubs. 

Paulo J: And so given you grew into this role as COO maybe you can describe a little bit more about what you do as COO in Verihubs, especially with respect to the company’s mission and vision.

Vivi M: If we describe the COO in Verihubs, [they] should be a very hard and agile person because regulations are changing massively. So we need to adapt [Verihubs] faster and we should prioritize the safety and reliability of our services, even small mistakes in every choice because it will be fatal for our clients’ business security and our reputation itself. 

If you ask me [what it’s like] to become the COO for Verihubs, it’s like I’m becoming a parent in the company. I need to always say to our team, please listen to what is the best for clients and also best for us because all these things can have an impact for us and for our clients [as well].

“If we describe the COO in Verihubs, [they] should be a very hard and agile person because regulations are changing massively. So we need to adapt [Verihubs] faster and we should prioritize the safety and reliability of our services, even small mistakes in every choice because it will be fatal for our clients’ business security and our reputation itself. If you ask me [what it’s like] to become the COO for Verihubs, it’s like I’m becoming a parent in the company.”

The Fast Changing Landscape of Identity Verification and AI for Business in Indonesia

Paulo J: So it’s about making sure that there’s order and making sure everybody’s doing their job properly. That tracks definitely because we’ve had conversations with a number of other COOs on the show, and they also share similar definitions of what they do. It’s really making sure the organization is doing processes properly, everybody’s compliant, and everybody’s like protected as well in what they’re doing.

And you mentioned earlier that the industry is changing so fast, right? And part of your role is to keep up with the changes. So maybe you can talk about those changes as well. What are the trends that you see, especially moving from 2022 to this year, when it comes to the identity verification market? Have you seen any changes in terms of spending or the demand on these types of solutions? 

Vivi M: Like I said before, the trends are always significantly changing. But in 2023, now we are shifting from the pandemic to an endemic. But fortunately, the AI demand has not decreased because when they already adapt the AI, all these things, they want to adapt it more.  For example, if we have a banking solution that uses our AI, all the banks come to us to [find out] how they can get those services too. 

A surprising fact is that market demand for online work has not changed, and tends to be stable and growing. But WFO business is also returning. Maybe we cannot reveal it now, but some of these businesses — many offices and educational [spaces] — are looking for us to pay attention to use our AI. They do like facial recognition to come into the office and then for the tenants, and so the use cases of the AI, it’s not just about the verification itself, but it’s also growing right now.

Paulo J: Just to sort of reiterate what you mentioned — so you’re saying that it’s going beyond the initial sort of customer segment that you’re initially targeting which are like the banks. You’re also seeing use cases — post pandemic use cases — because now that people are going back to the office, going back to school and whatnot, you’re seeing a lot of other types of businesses that are looking at especially the facial recognition use case for Verihubs. 

So I think that’s really interesting considering how things initially started with the company and what you’re exploring now. And it’s good to know that these kinds of solutions are not really tied or dependent on the whole pandemic effect when it comes to digitalization.

And speaking of all these different use cases, you mentioned a couple of them, from banks all the way to offices and KYC verification all the way to facial recognition. From your perspective, what are the most important use cases or market segments for Verihubs moving forward?

Vivi M: Currently our technology is mostly needed by financial institutions or FinTech. Banks to FinTech startups use our technology as one of the main “backbones” in order to build a safe and confidential digital financial ecosystem for their stakeholders. Maybe people know it as KYC or eKYC.

But as I mentioned earlier, we also adapt to other industries. We have some kind of use case for hospitality and education [establishments]. So all our products are more adapted for other industries right now, but for the main point, the main use cases, it’s still for KYC because it’s really valuable for security because all the things that we create is to prove your users are their real persons.

Paulo J: And so you also mentioned how regulation is constantly  evolving as well in Indonesia especially when it comes to data privacy. I think there was only like last year or 2021 when Indonesia came out with its own latest data privacy act. So maybe you can share a little bit about that whole regulation piece and how that has impacted Verihubs’ business. 

Vivi M: To be honest, we didn’t have to adapt much when the data privacy regulation in Indonesia was enforced because we already complied with it. We always are [including it] in our contracts to the clients or to the end user. In our terms and conditions, we always say it clearly. We strictly create a high security for your data privacy. So it does not really impact us actually. 

“Currently our technology is mostly needed by financial institutions or FinTech…as one of the main “backbones” in order to build a safe and confidential digital financial ecosystem for their stakeholders…We have some kind of use case for the hospitality and education [establishments]. So all our products are more adapted for other industries right now, but for the main use cases, it’s still for KYC…”

Receiving Global Certification for AI Technologies

Paulo J: And another thing I also wanted to talk about is that Verihubs’ solutions have actually received several certifications, from globally recognized institutions across the world, including I think more recently the National Institute of Science Technology in the US.

And also more recently as well, you also received ISO certification as well. So maybe you can share with your listeners what is the importance of the certifications for you guys and how it helps the business long term? 

Vivi M: So when we talk about AI, there are all these questions coming from the market itself. There are always questions about, “How is your facial verification doing? How fast is it? How about the accuracy?” And so on. And they also ask about how secure it is if [they] hit your server and [if you do] not use our data, and you do not sell our data. 

So that’s why we have received ISO 27001. That’s regarding the improving information security and management system, and also we have the certification for our AI. 

It’s called an NIST-FVRT [certification]. In participating in the NIST-FVRT certification with success in entering the category one to-one verification to many identification and presentation tech detection. 

With these three certifications, it proves our technology can become a reliable service in Indonesia and the world also. The certification is a big factor for Verihubs to get and serve our big clients. 

Paulo J: It’s really remarkable that you guys were able to put together all these three certifications that you talked about. I was curious to know, were there any learnings from the whole process of getting those certifications? Was it just like an easy thing for you guys or what was the experience like? 

Vivi M: Actually we needed to create many policies and procedures. We have like hundreds of procedures in our organization, so it’s not really easy.

And we also should be compliant with all the [requirements]. It’s like you need to regularly change your password. You need to regularly see your data and put it in trash [if] you don’t need to use it again. And there’s so many [other] things to be complied with. We also have to audit it in the sixth [month] and one year regularly.

I think that it’s so strict and it can be parameters [to show] that we are compliant and fully put security as an important thing to us.

“…we have received ISO 27001. That’s regarding the improving information security and management system, and also we have the certification for our AI. It’s called an NIST-FVRT [certification]. In participating in the NIST-FVRT certification with success in entering the category one to-one verification to many identification and presentation tech detection. With these three certifications, it proves our technology can become a reliable service in Indonesia and the world also.”

Learnings on Fraud Risk Management, Leveraging Customer Insights, and Managing BD and Sales Teams

Paulo J: And so because of these certifications, Verihubs is also able to mature as an organization, right? So it’s also not just about the product, right? Like with the certifications, you also have to make sure that the internal controls and organization is up to standards. 

And speaking of customers, maybe you can speak to what is one key piece of advice you would give to business leaders when it comes to protecting their customers from fraud risk. 

Vivi M: If we talk about Verihubs, we are always alert from all sides, to strengthen our system. Like I said before, we do implement the ISO [requirements]. 

And please don’t put all the things or all your company data just in one person. You need to do pen testing regularly, things like that, and it’s important to reduce the potential events that you don’t want to happen in the future.

Paulo J: The key takeaway I got is to diversify how you store our data within your company. And what is another key piece of advice you would give to business leaders — going back to this whole data conversation — when it comes to tapping into customer data or leveraging that to be able to boost adoption, retention or conversion.

Vivi M: One of the most important pieces of advice is to always put the things that your clients really need [first]. I always listen to them. When you find out the things that are really important to them, the market will come to you. 

Another important piece of advice is always [to sell] the product we offer as much as possible according to the client’s request, from those that we consider market leaders. When the product is considered feasible, all businesses from the same country will [follow suit]. 

Paulo J: I wanted to shift gears a little bit from talking about the industry and all these things that you’ve learned and how warehouses have grown. To talk a little bit about your leadership approach, your management style, so what has been your approach to driving more operational efficiency and performance management, especially for the BD or sales teams, which I think you’re in charge of as a COO. 

So what has been your approach and is there anything that you’ve learned throughout your experience at Verihubs having to manage these teams?

Vivi M: From the COOs perspective, of course, I should always [be conscious of] [the company’s] time and money. 

So for the BD team, we give them flexibility because we know that the salesperson [needs to be] more [free] and they [should] have that freedom. So we are not strict with them to always come to the office. There’s only one time in a week they should come to the office. And then we also give them some of the budget to entertain the clients. 

And we also track all things like, how many meetings [does it take for] you to get the clients? Is it three times or four times? And how much did you spend with that client? So we can analyze it to [understand], is it worth to spend like 2 million to get 100 million or so on. All that should be calculated on our side.

“Another important piece of advice is always [to sell] the product we offer as much as possible according to the client’s request, from those that we consider market leaders. When the product is considered feasible, all businesses from the same country will [follow suit].”

#MinuteMasterclass: Selling Software

Paulo J: I think it’s really interesting that you don’t, every person in the sales team has their own burn and you sort of calculated the efficiency of that burn with regards to what kind of sale they’re able to make. 

And so on that note, I wanted to get into our #MinuteMasterclass corner where we have our guests share some learnings from their experiences. And if you were to give a masterclass to fellow BD professionals like yourself or entrepreneurs just starting out their own startup when it comes to selling software right to enterprise clients, maybe even institutions like banks, what would be one key takeaway you would want these students of your class to take away?

Vivi M: It is the thing that I learned from my BD [role] and also from our CEO Rick, that we should always be listening to the clients. We should be listening and understanding what they need.

Paulo J: Can you give an example of that, an example of how that’s applied?

Vivi M: I want [to sell] all the [solutions here], but what can encourage the client, what is really their real problem? Is it about the verification yourself or is it about the fraud? If the call is about the fraud, how many fraud cases [do they] receive if they use that system? So you need to really encourage the client to get that kind of information. 

After that you can really know what you should sell to the clients. Besides [saying], I have this product that is just really good, you just use it, you need to know first what their pain point is. 

Paulo J: And I think that takes a lot of I guess a lot of conversations as well. . Yeah. Know. Yeah. It’s, it’s not something, I guess that you find out in, in one meeting, . 

Vivi M: You cannot find out in one meeting, so you need to build a relationship with them. Right. Make them trust you and you [will be able to] know their pain points. 

“I want [to sell] all the [solutions here], but what can encourage the client, what is really their real problem? Is it about the verification yourself or is it about the fraud? If the call is about the fraud, how many fraud cases [do they] receive if they use that system? So you need to really encourage the client to get that kind of information. After that you can really know what you should sell to the clients.”

#RapidFireRound

What digital technology or innovation excites you the most today? 

Vivi M: Definitely AI. It’s like ChatGPT. It’s really impressive today. So we also [follow] them because AI [solutions] are becoming more powerful, and we also create the AI but for security. We need to always [be improving] our products, to tackle all the things that our stakeholders need starting from fraud. But it’s really interesting. 

Looking back now, what is a skill that could be a soft skill or hard skill that you think you should have learned back when you were a student? 

Vivi M: I was a communication arts student before. But I wish when I was in college that more things were more practical, not just theoretical, because when I was in college, all the lectures were about planning, strategies to communicate to people.

But I want to learn more about [things like] top 10 tips on how to impress the person in the first meeting or how to negotiate and build and close the deal. It’s more important for young people, especially BD [professionals] for the career. 

If there’s something that you could automate in your job just by wishing for it, what aspect of your role would that be? 

Vivi M: I wish I can automate all the things, but actually that’s the thing that we do it right now. So with all this data we create a one system. It’s for user conversion, budgeting, and finance. We created one system. So when we need to analyze the data, we can do it more easily. So we are now focusing on making all the things more automatic. So we can focus on the things that are bigger to the business.

What is your favorite go-to destination in Southeast Asia or, what trip are you most looking forward to taking in the region? 

Vivi M: Actually I don’t have many countries that I have visited in Southeast Asia. I only visited Bangkok and Singapore. Apart from that, I think that’s Vietnam because when we talk to other startups, they say Vietnam is more similar to Indonesia.

What’s your favorite activity to de-stress? I know you’re very busy as a mom and also as a COO. So what do you do to take care of your mental health and also de-stress?

Vivi M: I go to the gym and play with my kids.

Do you have any books that you’ve read, maybe not recently, but before that you want to recommend for listeners? 

Vivi M: I’m not into books right now, but actually I am listening to podcasts. I love to [learn] about how to influence people, how to become a good leader because I’m still processing too because [Verihubs] is bigger now and, and I have more managers under me, so I need to know how to represent myself to become a COO. So I kept learning from them.

Paulo J: And on that note of continuously learning and continuously evolving yourself, I wanna thank Vivi for coming on the show. Thank you for making the time and coming in prepared to share a lot of like different insights from learnings and also giving us an update on what Verihubs has been up to. And now you’re definitely looking at a lot more use cases and also have all those certifications as. It’s great to see how Verihubs has evolved as well, how you yourself have evolved also through the company and looking forward to the progress that Verihubs will make in the coming months.