⁠Insignia Ventures Academy⁠ Cohort 1 alumnus ⁠Jui Takle⁠ shares with Paulo her journey after joining ⁠the first-of-its-kind venture capital accelerator program⁠ and how she started to lead strategic development at the Philippines’ pioneering digital bank ⁠Tonik⁠. Get insights into Jui’s experiences in the fintech industry from 12 years in fintech and credit rating agencies, particularly in the Philippines and Southeast Asia, and her approach to assessing blue oceans markets and M&A and partnership opportunities for fintechs like Tonik. 

Timestamps and Highlights

(01:29) Introducing Jui Takle;

“I have to do research and put out my analysis based on that to work on partnerships or M&As. There’s a gambit of research that you have to do on things, and it can be infinite, and some of it, you can get lost in. It’s irrational to work on that part of the research, so you have to be smart enough to know which part to pick up and which part not to.” 

(04:32) Jui’s Insignia Ventures Academy Afterthoughts;

“One of the things I learned was not to take blue oceans for granted. Just because a space is considered a blue ocean, it doesn’t mean that there is a product-market fit for it or that it will be acceptable in a certain region. It’s important to understand the drivers and limitations in different regions.”

(12:07) Finding Tonik and Returning to a Mentor;

“There were many experiences, but if I had to choose one, it would be the emphasis on working as a team…None of my other bosses had ever done that, so I was amazed by him. And actually, these are also the core values of Tonik that he still implements today.”

(17:31) Assessing Blue Oceans and Opportunities in Fintech;

“What it lacks is interoperability between the digital banking platforms and payment systems, which is a major obstacle in the growth of digital banking in Southeast Asia. Interoperability allows seamless transactions between digital platforms and systems, just like how it is in India with UPI. In any ecosystem, the first thing that develops is payments and then the rest follows. So I would say that there is still some time for Southeast Asia to mature.”

(27:47) #MinuteMasterclass: Filtering Opportunities for M&A and Partnerships;

“It’s important to note that just because a market is large doesn’t mean it’s always the best fit…So fintechs should focus on achieving unit profitability and understanding the time it takes to get there. It takes time to build a scorecard and achieve a sustainable cost of risk.”

(30:16) #RapidFireRound;

About our guest

⁠Jui Takle⁠⁠ is currently handling Strategic Development at the first digital bank in the Philippines, ⁠Tonik⁠ Digital Bank⁠, where she is involved in strategic partnerships and M&A deals. She has 12+ years of experience in Southeast Asia and India including her stint in Tonik Digital Bank, a fintech venture builder, and credit rating agencies – S&P’s subsidiary (CRISIL Ltd) and Infospectrum. She analyzed various companies by performing deep due diligence and conducting market and industry research as well as assisted in building fintech startups from zero to one with their fundraising, financial and legal requirements, market research and business structuring including M&A.

Transcript

Transcripts are edited for clarity.

Paulo J: Can you introduce yourself by sharing three numbers or sets of numbers that best describe what you do at Tonik today?

Jui T: I worked in India before moving to Singapore over seven years ago and have been part of the Southeast Asia ecosystem ever since. In Southeast Asia, I did M&A deals and worked in a venture builder that built consumer FinTech companies. That’s where I built my skill of assessing gaps in the market. Now, I handle strategic development at Tonik Bank, focusing on research, strategic partnerships, and M&As. 

When it comes to numbers, for this role, I would say it’s a set of infinite numbers because I do infinite research to find rational and irrational numbers with the capacity to differentiate between them.

Paulo J: That’s definitely an interesting way to put it. Can you give an example of the irrational aspect that you talked about in relation to strategic development? How do you differentiate between the irrational and rational aspects of it?

Jui T: As I said, I have to do research and put out my analysis based on that to work on partnerships or M&As. There’s a gambit of research that you have to do on things, and it can be infinite, and some of it, you can get lost in. It’s irrational to work on that part of the research, so you have to be smart enough to know which part to pick up and which part not to. Especially when it comes to a strategic partnership, finding the right fit is really important. There are a lot of things to do in the Philippines, but which way to go is something that you have to rationalize.

“I have to do research and put out my analysis based on that to work on partnerships or M&As. There’s a gambit of research that you have to do on things, and it can be infinite, and some of it, you can get lost in. It’s irrational to work on that part of the research, so you have to be smart enough to know which part to pick up and which part not to.” 

Jui’s Insignia Ventures Academy Afterthoughts;

Paulo J: Filtering out the noise and finding what’s relevant for the business is crucial. Let’s shift gears and talk about your journey at Insignia Ventures Academy. Can you tell us how you found out about the program, given that you were already doing a lot of things in Southeast Asia at the time, and what made you decide to take up this 12-week program?

Jui T: While working as a venture builder, I gained the perspective of building and scaling a startup and understanding market gaps. I was also involved in fundraising for portfolio companies and spoke to many VCs to understand their perspective. That’s how I met Yinglan and the Insignia team, as we pitched some portfolio companies to them. So I was already aware of Insignia’s credible track record in the startup ecosystem. 

One day, I saw a post on LinkedIn about Insignia’s venture capital accelerator program in Southeast Asia, and it caught my interest. I applied for it and spoke to Gail, who gave me in-depth program details. I thought it would be interesting to learn about other segments because my past experience was mainly focused on fintech and finance. I wanted a perspective on other sectors and how to build a thesis across them, which could help me take on portfolio management or strategy development roles and build connections. The program really helped me.

Paulo J: Two things to note here, first is the way you found out about Insignia reminds me of what you did in the program, pitching startups. It comes full circle. Second, in the program, you get assigned to teams and sectors to work on, looking for startups and talking to founders. What sector were you focused on at the time?

Jui T: I have experience in FinTech, so I didn’t want to take that. I had a keen interest in health tech though I didn’t have a background in it. So I chose health tech.

Paulo J: What was the experience like venturing into a new sector that you had an interest in but not much experience with, unlike FinTech?

Jui T: It gave me a better perspective. I was limited in my understanding of the sector, to be honest. I had invested in one health tech startup in India through a syndicate, but I hadn’t built a thesis or tried to understand the gaps in the market. It really helped me gain a different perspective, such as how the primary segment is really developed in the region, but the specialized secondary segment is not, which many health tech startups, like Doctor Anywhere, are now getting into. It was pretty interesting to learn about these things in health tech.

Paulo J: So I guess for anybody who’s interested in learning about the sector, but they don’t seem to have time to do that because of another focus that they’re having, we’ll make time for you to do that. Moving on, what would you say is the highlight of your experience in those 12 weeks? Was it the IC meetings, talking to founders, or meeting with your teammates?

Jui T: I think all of it. I would actually start with meeting entrepreneurs, because I was always surrounded by entrepreneurs. Even when I was working in India, I had to speak to them. So it was very exciting to talk to them. Starting from there, it was really exciting to talk to different entrepreneurs. You don’t get to do it in your daily life, otherwise, if you’re not in VC, right?

The other thing is connecting with people in the ecosystem through this cohort. In my cohort and across other cohorts, I met amazing people with great minds who I could reach out to at any given point. And not just the cohort people, but even the Insignia team and Yinglan. I could reach out to them at any given point. Thanks to you guys, it’s super active, so I’m able to do that.

But aside from that, I think even the IC meetings were an eye-opener of what happens, because as a venture builder, I was on the other side of the table and I had a bird’s-eye view but not a complete picture of what happens. So it was an eye-opener of what happens during the IC meetings. Every time, I improved the way I would look at startups.

Paulo J: Speaking of eye-opening experiences, what is one takeaway that still sticks with you today, and something that you perhaps concretely apply in your work at Tonik?

Jui T: One of the things I learned was not to take blue oceans for granted. Just because a space is considered a blue ocean, it doesn’t mean that there is a product-market fit for it or that it will be acceptable in a certain region. It’s important to understand the drivers and limitations in different regions.

Paulo J: That’s a pretty interesting insight. Before we tie things back to your work at Tonik, can you share some advice for current and incoming venture fellows of the program?

Jui T: My advice would be that if you are an aspiring founder, this program will help you build connections and understand the perspective of a VC. It will also help you with fundraising. If you aspire to be in a VC, angel investor, or a strategic development role like me, it will help you understand how to assess market gaps, do deep due diligence, and build a network. I believe that building a network is a crucial thing to have in this ecosystem.

“One of the things I learned was not to take blue oceans for granted. Just because a space is considered a blue ocean, it doesn’t mean that there is a product-market fit for it or that it will be acceptable in a certain region. It’s important to understand the drivers and limitations in different regions.”

Finding Tonik and Returning to a Mentor

Paulo J: You covered a lot of different demographics that we typically have in the cohort. And there’s something for everybody. Coming from a venture-building background, how did you end up joining Tonik? Did you have your own personal thesis about digital banks being the future, or was it something Greg said that convinced you?

Jui T: I worked with Greg before and stayed in touch with him even after leaving the venture builder. When I had another opportunity at hand, I called Greg to consult him. He offered to consider Tonik, as they were building and scaling at the time, and he has always given me the freedom to think outside the box. I also believe that the Philippines has untapped potential that can be scaled with sizable bank deposits and not wholesale liabilities.

Paulo J: It seems like Greg has been a huge influence on you and someone you really look up to as a mentor. So my next question is, what’s the biggest thing you’ve learned from Greg throughout the years that you’ve worked with him, both in Tonik and even Forum?

Jui T: Yeah, it’s hard to pick just one thing because I’ve learned so much from him. He’s the smartest and most capable person I’ve ever worked with. He’s adept at finding market gaps and building and scaling companies. But if I had to pick out a few key things, it’s definitely thinking outside the box and being solution-oriented in whatever we do, as well as working effectively as a team. These are values that I still implement in my work today.

Paulo J: Was there a particular experience, whether from Tonik or Forum, that stands out to you as a defining moment in your learning from Greg?

Jui T: There were many experiences, but if I had to choose one, it would be the emphasis on working as a team. It’s funny, because I’m not very good at making pitch decks and presentations, but I made a simple one for one of our portfolio companies. 

Greg then took it and made it look really nice. When he told me that I did a good job, I was surprised because I just put basic stuff on the deck. But he said that it was a team effort, not just me. None of my other bosses had ever done that, so I was amazed by him. And actually, these are also the core values of Tonik that he still implements today.

Paulo J: I guess Greg shouldn’t listen to this episode — it might all get to his head. But definitely a lot of credit where credit is due, and I think it’s great to know that it still carries through from all of his experiences and that you’ve definitely been there on that journey as well.

And speaking of tying things together from your past experiences at Forum, you talked about learning about the Philippine market and building up your conviction on it. But is there anything else from your past experience in fintech venture building that has impacted the way you approach your SD role? Aside from the Philippines and the PPTs, anything else that may be impacted how you help build these companies from the ground up?

Jui T: So in the venture builder days, we had five portfolio companies and one of them was AsiaKredit, which was into consumer lending in the Philippines. The other two companies had a limited presence in the Philippines. But because I was constantly scanning the Philippine market, I saw the landscape change since 2018 and understood what worked and what didn’t work, and every day was a learning curve since then. And we are still learning from our mistakes.

If I have to give an example of AsiaKredit, what we understood is that doing longer tenure loans is the play, but if you have to do longer tenure, you need capital to deploy, right? And unless you have access to cheap capital, then you have to use equity which lowers your ROE. So this is what happened with AsiaKredit. So now you can obviously leverage this experience and understand how to grow the loan book. That’s something that’s helped me even today in my role.

“There were many experiences, but if I had to choose one, it would be the emphasis on working as a team…None of my other bosses had ever done that, so I was amazed by him. And actually, these are also the core values of Tonik that he still implements today.”

Assessing Blue Oceans and Opportunities in Fintech

Paulo J: And that really explains the way Tonik operates as well, as an evolution of what you guys learned at AsiaKredit, and certainly, that model, Tonik being a pioneer in the Philippines and to an extent the region as well. 

Now that we see a lot more digital banks coming up, even more recently in the news, like Sea Group launching their digital bank in Singapore, we’re seeing that digital banking is definitely a key part of fintech that is maturing in the region. 

So from your perspective, being on the front lines of all of this, how do you think digital banking in Southeast Asia or even more specifically in the Philippines has to mature even further? What are the gaps still missing out there? And what role do you think Tonik will play in doing this?

Jui T: That’s an interesting question, but I think it’s still not at a maturing stage. What it lacks is interoperability between digital banking platforms and payment systems, which is a major obstacle in the growth of digital banking in Southeast Asia. Interoperability allows seamless transactions between digital platforms and systems, just like how it is in India with UPI. In any ecosystem, the first thing that develops is payments, and then the rest follows. So I would say that there is still some time for Southeast Asia to mature.

The other thing is enhancing customer experience and innovating products that are unique to customer needs in that region. People don’t want to stand in long lines. Today, they just want everything done quickly on their phones, and they want personalized experiences. The traditional banks in the Philippines have realized the value of this seamless experience that we and other digital banks are giving, so they are also trying to get into it. 

If you look at our Tonik app, you’ll see that once you open it, the first thing that will pop up is your first name, and you’ll get reminders like, “Hey love.” That’s a personalized experience, and it’s super easy to do any transaction on the Tonik app, so the growth is on the rise. That’s something that obviously engages people, and obviously, the rest of the products will follow, and there’ll be more stickiness to customers.

Paulo J: Just a follow-up question there, especially with the first point about interoperability, which I find interesting. Do you see UPI as the model to follow for other Southeast Asian markets, or do you think there should be another approach that’s not necessarily government-driven?

Jui T: Maybe the FinTech ecosystem itself can work together to achieve this. It doesn’t have to be government-driven, but I still believe there is a need to do it. In my opinion, the ecosystem needs to hustle and bustle, similar to how it was in India.

Paulo J: Moving into another big trend we’re seeing in FinTech is how ubiquitous it’s becoming in a lot of user experiences. Consumers want things to be a lot more seamless, and that goes into even non-financial service apps as well, where you see payment services, insurance, and loans being accessible without necessarily having to open a banking app. How do you see this evolution of digital platforms capturing the financial services aspect playing out, and how do you see it impacting businesses like Tonik, which are purely financial services digital?

Jui T: I believe that this additional feature adds to the stickiness of other product offerings and obviously increases their LTV. With an exception of Grab and a few others, many B2C players partner with banks or non-bank institutions for these additional product offerings. For example, Traveloka had a former lending product that they ditched and restarted after partnering with Bang Jago for loan disbursement. 

Another example in the Philippines is the HR tech company called Sprout, which partnered with a salary-backed lender to give out loans to employees who are using the Sprout platform. This definitely gives avenues for FinTechs like us to seek partnerships and leverage their data. So I don’t see it as a negative, I see it as a positive.

Paulo J: Speaking of partnerships, when I had Greg on my podcast last time, the latest news on Tonik was the Mizuho round. And now one of the more recent developments from Tonik towards the end of the year was the acquisition of TendoPay and the expansion into employee financial services. Could you talk a little bit about that and what it has meant for Tonik, especially given the push towards secured loans and the other lending products you offer?

Jui T: Sure. So last year, we acquired TendoPay, which is a payroll-enabled financial solutions platform offering salary-backed lending and BNPL options in the Philippines. My colleague and I worked on this deal because we felt it was a good fit with our other products like unsecured loans and the recently launched home equity loan. We wanted to add to our secured lending gambit of products since the risk is lower in these types of loans. We scoured through many companies in the Philippines and found TendoPay to be the best strategic fit.

Paulo J: Just like a whole other IVA exercise going into that as well, right?

Jui T: Yes, it was totally an IVA exercise that we had to do in six months.

Paulo J: Kudos on getting that deal done and opening up that sector for Tonik. That leads me to my next question about what excites you about Tonik moving forward. Do you see more partnerships in sectors where you can launch different types of secured loans? I know you can’t share all the details, but in general, what direction do you see Tonik going and what excites you about it today?

Jui T: To give you a little perspective on the market, the unsecured consumer lending market in the Philippines through formal and informal channels is just 15 to 20 billion USD and has the potential to grow three to four folds because the Philippines’ unsecured consumer loans to GDP is the lowest in the region. 

And there are very few players who have captured the market, especially in consumer lending. So there is a chance for us to grow. The Philippines has reached an inflection point.

We already have four unsecured lending products and one of them is unit profitable and we are in the scaling mode for it. So we are seeking partnerships for that one. We have two secured loans, one being TendoPay’s salary-backed loan and the other being a home equity loan. We also have a payment product, so we don’t plan to increase the number of products. 

This year, we plan to scale with a backup of 150 million in deposits. So we are placed very well in terms of resources and in terms of the loan book that we can scale.

Paulo J: The way that you explain it, it seems like you come with a product and then work out partnerships to scale its adoption. Is that correct to say?

Jui T: Yes, that’s correct. Right now, my job is to search for partnerships, so this year has been about that.

Paulo J: And so I guess you have more work to do this year since you mentioned that the whole focus is scaling. You joined the company around April last year, and the market has gone through turbulence, and even today it still seems to be going through some turbulence. So how has that affected your work in terms of approaching various partners and working out these deals? Or do you see the opposite in the digital banking space in the Philippines where it’s very much on the rise?

Jui T: No, I think it has definitely increased my workload. If I have to talk about last year, it was the so-called fundraising winter for startups in Southeast Asia. There were a lot of consolidations, and what I saw was that there were a lot of M&A deals that were completed, the highest from 2014. 

So Tonik is well positioned in terms of resources, so we could take advantage and acquire TendoPay instead of organically launching in the market. But for this year, the story is a little bit different. We already have acquired a company and we already have a lot of loan products. So for this year, we can see that there was an SVB fallout, which probably may not affect Southeast Asia fundraising in a very big way. 

However, there will be capital constraints as VCs will be cautious about funding the operations of companies. We have also seen since last year, or the year before last year, we’ve seen the loan books of other competitors depleting, even because of SEC caps. So one of the things that we saw was that this gives us an opportunity to have good strategic deal terms with other people. So it’s a nice time to be in when you have the resources.

“What it lacks is interoperability between the digital banking platforms and payment systems, which is a major obstacle in the growth of digital banking in Southeast Asia. Interoperability allows seamless transactions between digital platforms and systems, just like how it is in India with UPI. In any ecosystem, the first thing that develops is payments and then the rest follows. So I would say that there is still some time for Southeast Asia to mature.”

#MinuteMasterclass: Filtering Through M&A and Partnership Opportunities

Paulo J: That actually leads me into the next segment of the show, #MinuteMasterclass. You talked about trying to sift through and find the right terms for deals and the right partners, which ties into your earlier answer about rational versus irrational thinking and finding the best fit for Tonik. 

So if you were to give a class on strategic development, specifically filtering through potential M&A or deal opportunities for a FinTech like Tonik, what would be the one key takeaway you would want founders or operators to bring home?

Jui T: One takeaway I would emphasize is the importance of tapping into untapped markets. However, it’s important to note that just because a market is large doesn’t mean it’s always the best fit. For example, Jungle, a company in the non-discretionary BNPL segment, shut down despite being in a blue ocean market. So fintechs should focus on achieving unit profitability and understanding the time it takes to get there. It takes time to build a scorecard and achieve a sustainable cost of risk.

Paulo J: Blue oceans are blue oceans for a reason, I guess. Do you have any frameworks or mental models for assessing the risk of potential opportunities? What are the top considerations you have?

Jui T: When assessing fintechs, we typically evaluate the size of the market in that segment, the market share of competitors, and whether the market is at an inflection point with the potential for growth. We also analyze their loan details, vintage write-offs, and roll rates during our initial due diligence.

“It’s important to note that just because a market is large doesn’t mean it’s always the best fit…So fintechs should focus on achieving unit profitability and understanding the time it takes to get there. It takes time to build a scorecard and achieve a sustainable cost of risk.”

#RapidFireRound

What digital technology/innovation excites you the most today?

Jui T: Since I’m in FinTech, I’ll really say this, in the FinTech segment, it’s blockchain as a mode of transaction. So I think blockchain can be more efficient than traditional transaction methods as it enables cheaper transactions.

Because the network is decentralized and automated, it can operate 24/7 without the need for intermediaries to do manual processes. So obviously, this reduces the cost and particularly for cross-border transactions, it reduces fraud. So Unionbank in the Philippines, they have the I2I platform, which is a blockchain-based technology for remittances and cross-border payments. So it’s existent in Southeast Asia.

If you were to be invited to produce a Netflix or OTT series, what would be the title and what would it be about briefly?

Jui T: Although this is an old series, I will still produce Silicon Valley. Because hands down is my favorite series. If you are in a VC or a startup world, you can relate to each and every character in that series. It’s super hilarious. I would make it on the Southeast Asia ecosystem and I would name it Block 71.

Looking back now, what is the skill, could it be a soft skill or hard skill that you believe you should have learned back in your time as a student?

Jui T: I think I should have learned the knack to connect to people in my university days or maybe a little earlier or later in my career. Having said that, I learned this skill in my life very, very late. And it didn’t come very easily to me.

If there’s something you could automate in your job just by wishing for it, what aspect of that role would it be?

Jui T: I think I’ll be repeating myself, but I wish I could automate preparing PowerPoint presentations on my findings and analysis. That would be great.

What’s your favorite go-to destination in Southeast Asia apart from Singapore? Or what trip are you most looking forward to taking in the region?

Jui T: I think my favorite place in Southeast Asia is Boracay. It’s got serene white sand beaches with emerald green water. And I want to go again.

What has been your favorite activity to de-stress?

Jui T: I’m a big foodie, so I like to explore good food or explore different cuisines. That really de-stresses me.

Anything that you’ve read or taken up recently that you’d like to recommend to our audience?

Jui T: So recently I read a very interesting book called The Power Law. I hope you’ve read that one. So I would recommend it to anyone who wants to enter into VC or the startup ecosystem. It has interesting anecdotes of early-stage VCs in the 1950s and about the startups at the time. So it explains the extreme ratio of success and failure in the VC world. That’s why it’s called the power law.

Paulo J: Definitely read The Power Law, then watch Something Ventured, and then join IVA. On that note, thank you so much for coming to the show. It was great to not just learn about your experience at IVA but also learn about how you’ve grown in the FinTech space, especially in Tonik, and share your perspectives on FinTech in the Philippines and the region.

Your insights into filtering potential M&A, deal opportunities, and partnerships have been really interesting to hear, as well as your favorite activities to de-stress and your recommended book to read. Thanks again for coming on the show, Jui. I look forward to hearing more great stuff from Tonik in the coming months.